FRAMES Photography Podcast
FRAMES Photography Podcast
Cliff Mautner
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In today's episode, W. Scott Olsen speaks with Cliff Mautner, a Philadelphia–New Jersey photographer whose work blends a photojournalist’s instinct with dramatic light, emotion, and technical precision, especially in weddings, portraits, and events.
You can visit Cliff's website here.
Find out more and join FRAMES here.
I believe it's the family that Nikon has created that encompasses genres that are so wide, so vast, and included in this group are some of the greatest people I've ever met in my life. And I'm just proud to call friends, associates, colleagues. Um, it's it's the people, it's it's the association, it's being on the list of names with the likes of Amy Vitali and Brian Scary and uh Joe McNally, for God's sakes. You know, to be included on a list with those people, that's an insane honor. And I don't take it lightly.
SPEAKER_00This photography podcast is brought to you by Frames, a quarterly printed photography magazine. Here is today's host, W. Scott Olson, with another fascinating conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another podcast from Frames Magazine. My name is Scott Olson, and today, today, folks, we are going into a kind of photography that I've said this before, frankly scares the hell out of me. There's a requirement to get it right, and there's no second chance. There's never a second chance. It is spontaneous, it is dynamic, it is mindful at its very best, and it's the kind of photography that you know the minute you press the shutter release, the person on the other side wants this picture to last forever. In other words, this is wedding photography. This is the kind of stuff where you are capturing and memorializing, you know, an important event in somebody's life. And my lord, there are a lot of people that do it pretty well. There's a very, very few people that take it not only to the next level, but the level beyond that. In other words, we're talking with Cliff Mountner. Cliff is one of the 10, get this, one of the 10 best wedding photographers, not in the neighborhood, not in the country, in the world, according to American Photo Magazine. Um, he's, you know, WPPI Photographer of the Year Award. He won the International Photographic Council Leadership Medal at the United Nations. Two-time WPPI Grant Award winner. I mean, come on, this is wedding photography that just simply is it I mean, use a technical term here, it's magic. Um, it's not just, you know, here's the mother of the bride at pew number four as they're walking down the aisle. This is storytelling. This is a way to take a day and turn it into not only documentation and fine art, but a narrative, a way to say to somebody, six weeks from now, six years from now, with any luck, 60 years from now, look at the love, look at the energy, look at the vibrancy of your lives at this moment. And like I said, there's never an opportunity for a do-over. There's never an opportunity to say I had my settings wrong or the light was wrong. When you are good at this, you are good at photography and composition and a way to understand everything from indirect light to indirect posing to how to get along with people. Cliff, welcome to the podcast today. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_02I'm doing good. Uh after that introduction, yeah, I'm doing just fine. You know, it's uh I just smile when I hear it. You know, the the bottom line, really, Scott, is I'm a photographer. I I do my best not to label. You know, I wasn't always a wedding photographer. Uh my background, you know, we'll probably get into that a little bit. But um, you know, what I will say about it is that wedding photography just simply made me a better photographer because of the versatility requirements. Uh, you know, that's really the bottom line is being able to uh face and uh become proficient at so many different aspects of the craft.
SPEAKER_01It it's you know, the their wedding photography, I think, engages every part of the photographic uh process simultaneously. You know, whereas other types, you know, you might you know not have as much focus on everything all at once. Boy, you you gotta nail it with with every press of a shutter release in your world.
SPEAKER_02Well, you do, you do, you do. But you know, one thing I'll I'll add to that. Um, I just I just wonder uh, you know, I used to think that, you know, when I was called a wedding photographer, I used to think it was an insult, especially when I first started because I came from photojournalism. So I used to think that, you know, those that those that can do what we do as photojournalists, those who can't, they shoot weddings. Oh, geez.
SPEAKER_01Well, okay. Um, you know, let's do get into your background here a little bit, because yeah, 15 years at the Philadelphia Inquiry, more than 6,000 assignments. But it it didn't start there. I mean, you you've told a story elsewhere. You know, seven years old, you're walking with your parents, streets of DC, and people, you know, they around the Smithsonian, and you are an insistent little kid. Um, you know, I want a camera. I want a so they bought you a dollar camera from a street vendor. Um now, was that really the start of it, or was that just a cool toy and a nice memory?
SPEAKER_02Actually, it was because uh first of all, I don't you are you're doing some deep digging, man. Um I I I feel I feel privileged and honored that that you that you dug that for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But no, seriously, you it is a true story. Uh, you know, we're walking around, and I was a petulant little bastard as a kid, and I saw these people taking pictures. So I'm um they buy me this camera and I'm looking through this little little hole in this little plastic piece of garbage, and I was seeing just things through this little hole, and I just thought it was a really interesting perspective. Um, I don't know if that began my lifelong love of photography, but it certainly didn't hurt. And I I just I walked around almost the entire day looking at everything just through that little hole.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I I I've discovered the photographers, when you say, you know, when did the bug first hit you? Um, you know, that there's generally three responses. You know, it's either the act of taking a picture, uh, it's the gadget, the machine, uh, or it's it's the post-processing. One of those things seems to be, you know, the the doorway they walk through first. You seem to have as as the doorway first, though, the actual act of composition, of seeing through that tiny little viewfinder.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that was that's what did it for me, especially, you know, and I couldn't listen, I'm seven years old, I can't appreciate architecture. But I'm looking at these buildings, you know, through this little this little hole in this little plastic piece of garbage that didn't work. I knew that you know there weren't going to be photographs coming from it, but I really just thought, you know, I was here's here's a good way to put it. I was sort of hiding behind it. And it was almost like a little mask that I was putting on. And it really hasn't changed. When I go to these weddings today, you know, during these speeches, these ridiculous speeches that these people give, I'm hiding behind my camera still. So it's some things haven't changed. But um, my my true love for it, you know, wasn't was in high school when uh, you know, took a photo class and you know, you're in the dark room and you're flirting with girls and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01And I I thought it was pretty cool then, but um you know you had a you had a high school friend named Mandy that you said you you were particularly following around.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god. What did you what I don't know where you're digging, but as a matter of fact, I was just with her last night with some old friends. That's all that's incredible. True story. Uh yes, uh, she was sort of the uh uh the prized photography student in shop class. It was basically a shop class, and we you know, photography was a high school elective. And she was sort of the the teacher's patent, she was my oldest friend. We've known each other since we're two. And you know, I had always uh was a little jealous of of the really nice pictures that she was she was taking. So um that sort of piqued my interest at that time. And then it wasn't really until if this is sort of an evolutionary process of of how I began, it wasn't until um uh early college in my sophomore year, I took a photojournalism class and and uh took a forensic photography class. You were you were a law student, yeah, or a law major. That's correct. I have a degree, an undergraduate degree in law justice. I did not go to law school, but um, you know, I saw an ad in a newspaper, and you've you've probably read it. It's a true story. I read an ad in the newspaper, award-winning weekly newspaper seeks photographer. And uh I needed money, man. I was a a broke college kid. My my parents thought I could live on 25 bucks a week in 1980 or 1981, I guess it was. And uh that was impossible. So I needed some money in it. This this newspaper paid 75 bucks a week, and which was you know, obviously still, you know, peanuts now, it was peanuts then. But it got my foot in the door, and and um I was absolutely horrendous. I had no experience, I had a pulse, they hired me, um, they took advantage of me. I'm I was terrible, Scott. I was terrible.
SPEAKER_01But okay, but there's still something else going on here because for the money, you could have gone flipped burgers. You could have been, you know, there's a million other things you could have done. And yet, you know, it was the camera and it was shooting pictures um that was calling to you as a way to get the money.
SPEAKER_02They were paying me to make pictures, man. So I don't care if it was ten dollars. How cool was that? Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01So do you remember what you were shooting in those early assignments?
SPEAKER_02Specifically, yes, of course I do. It was uh, you know, uh there's a little town in New Jersey shooting Deptford Day, you know, little kids uh, you know, playing uh whatever that stupid game is, uh Cornhole. Uh there's, you know, uh the dunk tank, um, you know, the mayor of the town speaking uh, you know, at the microphone, doing, you know, these terrible microphone pictures of him speaking to his constituents. Um you know, the the Boy Scout of the Week. Um I'm not kidding. These are the the incredibly exciting assignments. The the assignments were just oh, they were so mundane and they were so unexciting, and I was so bad. Um, but it's how you cut your teeth.
SPEAKER_01But isn't that also a great combination to have a boring assignment and to realize your talent needs to up a little bit? Yeah. So you start you get hungry. You get no, but you get hungry, don't you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. But you know, uh I'm again, this is not false humility. I just didn't have the skill set to you know to to really to really bring it up a level at the time, you know, because I I was just uh I literally talked my way into this job and I had no experience, I had no skill, and I was just kind of muddling my way through. Now I could shoot some sports because I had to do a lot of sports, and that's sort of how everything began for me, because I was able to, you know, find some timing. I was an athlete my whole life, and and to be able to, you know, have the you know, hand-eye coordination to be able to manually focus a 300 millimeter lens um was a little bit, you know, it it it wasn't easy at that time. So that's that's really what enabled me to move on to the Philadelphia Inquirer.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, okay, let we'll talk about that that move in just a second. But 1978, your parents bought you a Nikon FE. Yes. Um, so were you early into gear? No.
SPEAKER_02All I knew was the name Nikon. And and being the being the petulant little bastard that I was, okay, I was at Willoughby's and uh, you know, the store manager, I got I still remember his name. His name's Ron Levine. Um, and my dad, you know, being the uh, you know, the the the kid from the Bronx is trying to negotiate for a freaking camera with the manager of the store. And I'm embarrassed as hell. I'm like, dad, just buy a goddamn camera, please. And so, you know, got the camera, got a 50 with it, you know, the other 514. Yep. And um, I just wanted a Nikon. He and we're looking at other cameras, and I'm just like, no, I want the Nikon, please, Dad, the Nikon, the Nikon. And that's how, you know, my Nikon love affair began.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and you are these days a Nikon ambassador, which you call the single greatest thing of your career. Um, given all the accolades and and stuff. Well, first of all, tell me what being an ambassador means. Um, but but why is this the thing you say is the most meaningful for you?
SPEAKER_02I believe it's the family that Nikon has created that encompasses uh genres that are so wide, so vast, and included in this group are some of the greatest people I've ever met in my life. And I'm just proud to call friends, associates, colleagues. Um it's it's the people, it's it's the association, it's being on the list of names with the likes of Amy Vitali and Brian Scary and uh Joe McNally, for God's sakes. You know, to be included on a list with those people, that's an insane honor. And I don't take it lightly. And the the family atmosphere that Mike Corrado, uh, the you know, we call him our chief ambassole.
SPEAKER_01Uh you know Mike will appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Um, what he's created, you know, is something incredibly unique and incredibly special. That I I nothing against the other organizations. No other camera company has this type of family atmosphere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I used to watch the Creator's Hour and you know, just and and sit and wait for it to come on all the time when he was doing that.
SPEAKER_02Um that's the reason, Scott. It's it's it's the the association.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and you know, I think we we do find brands finally um that fit something in our soul, well, you know, or develop something, and and we become uh completely unreasonably and emotionally attached to them. And then yeah, you get proud to say I'm part of this family. Yes, very much so. Okay. 1996. Your best man at a friend's wedding. Tell me, tell me the story there.
SPEAKER_02Wow. You know, I feel like I'm on like uh like Jimmy Kimball, who's whose staff has done you know a week of research. Geez, you you you're really doing a great job here. Um yeah, uh my friend Mark's wedding, and uh there was a photographer there, and and of course, you know, you're at a wedding, and and and I can't help but look at the photographer, uh, and and you know, in in the back of my mind, being a little judgy, of course, and um just watching this person work, and and uh she came over to me. Her name was Susan. Uh she came over to me and uh she said, So Mark tells me you're a photographer with the inquirer, and I said, Yes. And you know, I I get my uh you know, my snot up, and I, you know, because I'm a photojournalist and you're a wedding photographer, and she's like, Well, you should, you know, uh you should come visit my studio, and you know, that you should consider, you know, shooting some weddings. And I, in the back of my mind, I sort of chuckled and and you know, and um I went and I I visited and and she had an impressive place in Many Unc outside of Philadelphia, in Philadelphia, but it's a section, beautiful studio. And um I went on a gig with her and I I quote second shot for her, whatever that means, um, and made some pictures and and you know I did it twice, and at that point I said, damn, I can do this. This is you know, this is innate. And uh, but it wasn't all that easy to face the business aspect of the craft. That was a whole different ballgame, Scott.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, talk to me about in you know, in in 96 or 97, what wedding photography was. Because then it was basically, you know, couples portraits, family portrait, walking down the aisle, you know, cutting the wedding cake, and we're done, right?
SPEAKER_02I think if if you take it a decade earlier or even five years earlier, I'd say you're correct. But at that point, there was there was you know, evolution was uh was on its way for the better. You know, 35 millimeter was was being you know used more and more, even though there were still uh some more traditional, you know, two and a quarter square format photographers that are shooting weddings, even though it was very slow, very clunky, and unable to really be fast enough to enter the foray of the quote photojournalistic approach, which some some people believe, you know, people like Dennis Reggie began it, um, which it could be correct, and Dennis was was really a pioneer. But I was the uh beneficiary of some pretty good timing in 1997-98 to be able to enter the genre with a photojournalist approach, a photojournalist's eye, and sort of uh uh rub against the grain, if you will, and not necessarily approach the day the same way that it was before, which was simply you were right, you know, group pictures, this, oh stop and look at the camera, so on and so forth, these, you know, the stodginess of wedding photography. And I bucked that trend and and sort of went in my own direction. Again, I was the benefit of a few people before me, good timing, and a skill set that I brought from 15 years with a newspaper.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's talk about that. I mean, 6,000 assignments, 15 years at the inquiry. So you've you've shot the very ugly and the very beautiful, and it's you know, rarely a mindful, composed, or when I say composed, I mean, you know, take half an hour to set up a shot kind of world. Tell me a what does a photojournalist bring to wedding?
SPEAKER_02The ability to anticipate and react. Okay. I think more than anything else. The other thing that uh you may have read, because I've I've shared this story, I think was critical, and I think this would be critical for your listeners and and sort of an exercise. I did a column, a weekly column for the Philadelphia Inquirer in the neighborhood section. It was called the neighbor section, called Neighbors in the News. And it was six assignments per week. I did one section and my friend Ellen did the other section. And it was six different people that we would go, we take an environmental portrait of this person. They were no, you know, some they did something notable in their town or their job or something. Again, it would be the athlete of the week or the business person of the week or so this kid won an eagle badge or an eagle scalp badge, whatever it might have been, taking these mundane assignments, going to an environmental portrait, going there, and I would set them up back to back to back to back to back to back. And you'd have literally under five minutes to go because you had to get to the next one. So you would have to go and set up an environmental portrait in literally no time flat, come away with a usable photo, okay, that that told a little story, and then go to the next one. Well, I did this for a couple of years, and after you know, the first year, I started to get the hang of it because you know it it takes time. That was what developed my ability to assess a situation quickly, look around, compose a scenario, choose the compositional scenario, the lighting scenario, and then here's where it really played a role. I helped set the stage for moments to take place without staging the moments. The moments were always my subjects. The moments were not mine. I only decided on the direction of light, compositional scenario, and I let them, you know, interact as they normally would.
SPEAKER_01Okay, let's let's make a small jump here, because now you've used the term light a couple of times. You you you created the the you know lighting uh and skill set bootcamp, which is a workshop tremendously successful. And yet you are also in just completely self-taught, other than you know, high school, you know, dark stuff. So how do you go about other than just botching it a thousand times, how do you go about developing an understanding of light?
SPEAKER_02Don't underestimate the value of botching it a thousand times. Okay. I'm I'm not I'm not joking about that. Um I I failed miserably uh plenty of times, but there were a few images that I created by sort of going against you know traditional ideals when it comes to light, shooting into light. Um and you know, during you know, wedding preparation, for example, when a bride's getting running in a room, uh, I pissed off many videographers early on because I would decide to shoot into the light and to use the edges of the light and to to create the use of backlight and you know, the just being able to use light differently was what set me apart early on. But what tipped off the videographers is that they did not understand how to expose, how to use that light. So, you know, it was uh a little disconcerting to them because they didn't really know what I was seeing, what I was capturing until I You know, because we didn't have digital cameras, I couldn't share with them what I was seeing. And so it it got to the point where I I would do my thing and then I would have to have them do their thing because they always wanted the light to their you know from their back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you'd be in their shot.
SPEAKER_02Well, it or they'd be in mine. Right, yeah. Okay. So it it was really uh seeing a couple of images to determine hey, that's my style. I like the way light is being used in this image. I want to expand on that, and I really want to explore that, and then being able to go out at one o'clock in the afternoon in July after a ceremony ends at 12:45, and not being afraid to shoot in that really harsh light, to be able to place my subject between me and the sun, exposed for the face, let some highlights go, and being able to make some dramatic images by using the direction of light. And and the direction of light for me was pretty much everything that created the texture, the dimension, the mood that I always talk about in my workshops and every seminar, and and and that's really what gave my images life is the direction of the light. So that's you know, and I worked that way with artificial light as well. But again, it it was an evolutionary process over time. That again, working with my videographer colleagues, it kind of pissed them off because they they didn't understand what I was trying to do. And no matter how many times I apologized and tried to explain to them, you can do this too. Many couldn't really relate. I was not I was not popular with the videographers.
SPEAKER_01Let's just Okay, well, well, tough, tough to be them then. Um okay, so many things that I want to get to here, but that you just talked about and other things. Um, one other story, though, that I want to hear. When you pitched your first client, apparently you had uh, you know, an old Kodak carousel under one arm, a bunch of Where are you digging this shit up, man? This is this is all online. All you got to do is just start no, but but you had no wedding, no examples of weddings, no you know, didn't even know about wedding albums. Um and yet you got you got the gig. So why?
SPEAKER_02It well after I shot those two assignments for that studio from my friend Susan Beard, who's still working in Maniock, um, you know, that's work for hire. I can't have any of those images to show. Right. So, you know, I had nothing. I had boards, you know, back in the day. It's they were boards. You had boards, you had a portfolio bag, and and and you brought boards to places, whether it be ad agencies or or you know, public relation firms to get jobs. And so I had some boards. I didn't have a single wedding images there. No wedding, nothing. I had images that I created at, you know, and assignments in in Liberia, uh, sports assignments, um, you know, uh, you know, politics. I had everything but weddings. And I I had a carousel of yes, I did have carousel of slides along with boards. I I gave them a presentation of, again, uh images from Liberia, West Africa. And they they, after I finished this 12 to 15 minute presentation, they look at me and say, Wow, those are really beautiful. So show us some wedding images. And I had none. I'm like, well, I don't have any. Long story short, for your listeners uh to cut it a little bit. Uh I asked for $1,000. They said, well, we'll give you $500. And I'm like, can you do $650? And they said, yeah, we'll do $650. But I shot this wedding. And afterwards, uh, I gave them proofs. You know, I had all the printed proofs and went through them and and and cut out the shitty ones. And um, I delivered these proofs in a box, a shoe box, by the way, like a decorative shoe box. And uh I said, here you go. And I drove it over there, and they said, Where's the album? I I said, huh? Well, where's the album? We gotta have an album. I'm like, I don't know anything about albums. And the fact is, and this is again, people are gonna say, God, what an idiot. I didn't have a contract. What's a contract?
SPEAKER_01Right. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02And so I had to do some research and and and got in touch with a couple wedding photographers, and there was an old company called Art Leather, uh, who sold wedding albums, and I had to get this wedding album from them and had the client select their images. The long and the short of it was it took me days to put this album together because it was the old little double-sided sticky tape. I must have screwed up, you know, I don't know, 50 prints trying to do this because I could I'm the long again, this cost me close to $400 to shoot this wedding.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02And then I made $50, so I made two, but I but no, I'm saying it cost me. Like it, it I paid $400 to shoot this wedding. Um after all was said and done, I spent that much money. Uh so yes, it was an investment, if you will, because I took that portfolio development, yeah. Yeah, and I then I had this crappy, just this old cheesy art leather album of, you know, and if they're not listening, they they weren't the most handsome couple, Scott. And and uh and I didn't know how to take a you know I didn't know how to make a woman look beautiful, I didn't know how to use off-camera light, I didn't add it a photojournalist's idea of um of lighting was a Vivitar 283 with an index card on the back of it. Oh my okay, that was my lighting. So, yes, I was terrible, and so I would have to sell my wares with this shitty album, with these shitty pictures, and that's how I started. And that was 1900.
SPEAKER_01But you got a second and then a third and then a fourth client. So yeah, it worked.
SPEAKER_02You know, you evolve. You just you learn, you you start slow.
SPEAKER_01You have been called, quote, an analog guy in a digital world. Yes. What is it? What does that mean?
SPEAKER_02You know, those of us that are of a certain age, um I got you beat there, by the way. Yeah, well, uh uh you know, we uh we learn on film and and we're film shooters, and and uh, you know, uh I was able to change a role of film in a matter of you know six or seven seconds. Um and um, you know, when the diff digital revolution really uh hit us hard, you know, 2001 they came out with the D1, and then a couple years later Canon came out with the 5D, that sort of revolutionized everything because you were able to um utilize ISOs uh at 3200 and really obtained pretty good results. And I just didn't believe that digital was there until around 2006-ish, not in the Nikon world anyway, and then 2007 the D3 came out and that changed everything.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And then I I shot the first wedding in the world with the D3, and I was astounded, shared it and loved it, and um, but it was really a matter of the processing side of things, Scott. The computer aspect, the software aspect that I was truth of the matter is I was just inconfident. And I was, you know, I don't know if I was afraid of it so much as I just didn't want to do it. I I I can't sit still. I've never sat at a desk for more than 20 minutes. Uh I'm already getting itchy here. Um no, but uh sorry about that. No, no, it's quite right. I'm I'm talking into my Yeti mic and we'll continue to do so because it's good sound quality. Um I I anticipated, this is the where the the you know the the this is one of the smartest things I ever did. Um I hired a full-time studio manager uh in 2006 uh in the summer, and she knew some lightroom, and we worked together to figure out the best workflow. And then in October 14th, 2006, I shot my first all-digital wedding. So the infrastructure was in place. And the truth is I have never, and and I don't know if this is good or bad, but this is the truth. I have never, not once, designed an album or processed an entire wedding with Lightroom. I use Aftershoot now. Okay. So I'm not afraid of the digital aspects now, and I'm pretty competent, but I went kicking and screaming. That's where the analog guy in the digital world comes in. Because I, you know, the evolution was not an easy process for me. It really wasn't.
SPEAKER_01Do you do you think it changes um something as as basic as um mindfulness or composition when you know it doesn't matter financially if you shoot 30,000 images um or versus you know the 300 you might get in film?
SPEAKER_02No, uh to change um chain mindset change uh maybe a little, but but the fact is it's made everybody better. It's made me better. It's it's made you know my colleagues better. The the you know, the we don't have to get into mirrorless cameras yet. That could be later in the conversation, because that's a whole different can of worms. But the DSLR, um it it absolutely made me better. Um, but I I never shot with any less intent. No.
SPEAKER_00Let's take just a quick break. We hope very much that you're enjoying today's episode. The very fact that you are listening to this podcast suggests that photography means a lot to you. And if that's the case, you might want to have a look at Frames Quarterly Printed Photography Magazine. We truly believe that excellent photography belongs on paper. Visit readframes.com to find out more about our publication and use the coupon code podcast to receive a recurring 10% discount on your new Frames magazine subscription. And now back to today's conversation.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if this is still true, but when you say that you don't, or you bring five bodies and nine lenses to a wedding, and it's just you. Um you you you have an assistant, but it's just you. Is that still true?
SPEAKER_02No. Uh okay. I bring now I bring uh I bring four bodies, okay, and about five lenses. So it's the the bag is has gotten a little bit lighter. Um, you know, my friend uh Deanne Fitzmorris, who who owns Think Tank Photo, uh I love her her airport roller, and I fit most stuff in there. And then I still have, I still bring uh my good old Donkey, which has a couple other things in it. And uh Jim Donkey, shout out to him, who was a former Philadelphia inquirer photographer. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know a lot of people don't know that. Um but yeah, uh still I bring those two and and we're pretty portable.
SPEAKER_01Uh um but but it is still, I mean, you you do have an assistant that will do you know, kind, you know, um you know B-roll stuff. But you made an interesting point about the lack of cohesiveness between two shooters just in terms of style, in terms of photographic voice. Um, and that that person, no matter who they are, is gonna shoot by default their way and not your way. Um so tell me about photographic voice in wedding photography.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, you know, I also think it's a matter of um skill set. Okay. Okay. And the the the truth, and and many won't admit this, but some will. Some some know it's true, and it is true. You have the primary photographer, and then whoever that second photographer is, they're basically on-the-job training. They're they're they're not skilled photographers, otherwise they'd be shooting on their own. And so I don't want that second person shooting critical moments when I don't damn well it's not going to equate and and jibe with with the work and the style of work that I'm producing. So um I I yes, the second photographers there for me today. The biggest reason is clients, you know, think that they need it. Okay. The other thing is, you know, if I want to put a photographer in the in the second floor of a church or, you know, a different um vantage point uh during a ceremony, great. Okay. I don't need two people shooting a reception. I don't need two people shooting wedding preparation. I I I can go to the bride and I can go to the groom and have the styles be similar because the the difference in the work is going to be so vast. I'm gonna call that shit out anyway. Yeah, I I I don't I don't, you know, and as much as I think I can, you know, teach people how to I can't teach people how to see like me. I've tried.
SPEAKER_01You don't want them to either. I mean you you don't you don't want a clone of of yourself out there running around. Let them develop their own voice.
SPEAKER_02Uh absolutely. And and you know, what I did in the boot camp was to do my best to help people see light and learn the direction of it and to develop their skill sets and to what I like to call, from a compositional standpoint, see three-dimensionally. Yeah. Because I think that's a that's a facet that I mean, it it's just not being taught now. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Cliff, how much of your world is research? I mean, clearly, you know, venues you've been to more than once generally, but there's gonna be new ones as well. But you know, let's say you know you're going to someplace and it's got high second story windows and you're thinking this is great, and then the day is just pouring down rain. How do you anticipate what you're gonna need or what you're gonna be presented with regarding light when you go to weddings?
SPEAKER_02Well, this might you know rub against the grain a little bit, but I don't. The research is useless. Um, if if you know, I've had clients get irritated with me when they say, you know, um, can you come out and and look at the venue? And I say, no. And they say, Well, you know, Joe Blow photographer said that they'd come out and I'm not take making an hour and a half drive to your venue to come and look at it. It's fucking May and your wedding's in October. I mean, what you the the the the light's gonna be different, everything's gonna be different. I'll get there 30 minutes on my own time, I'll get there early and I'll you know scope the place out and and I've got it. It you know, this isn't rocket science. I I I don't ever feel the need to, you know, scope out a location, a wedding location prior. Now, there's been commercial jobs, quite frankly, that I've wanted to take a look at and have a plan. And, you know, uh that that's a completely different animal than a wedding. I don't need to do that for a wedding. It's just unnecessary. Are you still working with just one speedlight? I I'll use a speed light on my camera with a flashbender on top for grip and grins, you know, cocktail hour stuff. Yep, you know, during a reception, just some, you know, people dancing during the, you know, the just the the dancey dance portion of stuff. I'll use a little flash on camera for that. But otherwise, no, I'm using a uh a Westcott uh FJ 200 off-camera that my assistant holds on a monopod. And um, you know, it's all off-camera stuff for that. Uh, but yes, uh, you know, I utilize that. And and I I'd be remiss if I didn't mention my uh my friend Stella, who is a 10,000 lumen uh con you know, uh constant light, which they're unfortunately they're out of business, and that's a whole nother can of worms because they were their morons because they decided to uh to rely on this uh uh this LED burst light that they tried to uh to market that was just a piece of garbage. That's another ball game, but I still love this style light and I got a bunch of them. But I use that for fill outside and use it for portrait work, and uh I think it's sensational. So I bring that, I bring the Westcott, and then quite frankly, I I bring my um my my old Pro Photo B1s if I need it. I I carry what's necessary. If you don't have the right tools, you can't do the job. So um I I'm not a minimalist. I I bring with me what I need.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And and depending on the weather that morning, you it that tells you what you need.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And what what is the light giving me?
SPEAKER_01Um, you said something that is is obvious, you know, when once it's said, but I'd never thought about it, that must be a tremendous uh challenge, I guess, now in in your part of the world. And he said, before your clients see your images, they've seen 500 images of their wedding from their friends on their phones. Um and so you you're coming in just by definition, you know, after you know, all this impression has been made. And my God, what a challenge that is to simply say, you know, I you know, I'm gonna knock your socks off here. Um how has the fact that all this sharing is going on before you show up with the product changed or affected the business?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh to be very honest uh and just very revealing, it used to bug the living crap out of me. Okay. Okay. Okay. Because this has been happening since around you know 2008, 2009, when the when the you know the camera phones and whatnot started, you know, and you know, you got the it you got the arms in the aisles and all this other stuff, and and it used to really bug me. Um jumping to today, Scott, I don't care. I really just no, I don't care anymore. I know that my images are gonna be you know far superior. I I know that the work is gonna speak for itself. There's nothing that I can do. The the the best word that I've used, and I've taught this in my workshop surrender. I've surrendered. I've surrendered to, you know, I I have. I, you know, you're laughing, but and it is funny. No, it makes perfect sense. That's the truth. You have to surrender to the environment and to the to, you know, to the times, to what's happening. And and uh, you know, what's happened with phones, and besides what it's done to the industry from a devaluation standpoint, commoditization standpoint, uh, you know, there's nothing we're gonna be able to do about it. The cat is out of the bag, you're not gonna be able to get that pace back in the tube. And, you know, you just have to prove your worth with the images that you produce. And frankly, if you can't produce images better than a damn phone with this equipment that we've been given right now, get out of the business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. That's okay. That makes perfect sense. Um, tell me a story of an event where everything just was perfect. That that, you know, the God looked down and said, um, you know, today everything is going to be the best it can possibly be.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_01Well, see if there's one out there.
SPEAKER_02You know what? Uh uh, all right. Uh we call those home runs. We call those home runs. Like it's like the the ideal situation we would be this magnificent setting for the bride's wedding preparation, uh, this you know, incredible venue where the ceremony might take place, uh, this you know wonderful opportunistic element that we're dealing with for you know the family portraits and the couples portraits and the diversity of the location and the the you know the angle and the direction of light and the time of day and the warmth and the colors and you know uh and then the venue where it's this you know uh not this whitewash piece of shit location that we see most of the time, and that there's actually some texture and some some a little bit of grit to the to the reception venue that that has some character. And then you have people that you can count on that are gonna give you some vibrancy and some personality that'll shine through and exuberance and emotions, and it doesn't fucking happen, Scott. It's not there. Okay, the closest thing that I came to it was this past, I believe it was November, and I had the privilege of shooting Mike Corrado's daughter's wedding. Oh my, okay. And it was pretty much a home run because the the venue they chose was absolutely beautiful. It was a vineyard in uh in the Hudson Valley, and the couple was lovely, the families were great. Uh just about a home run, as close as a home run as I can remember. The home runs, like I said, consist of great prep situation, great scenarios, great people, great light. And those are and then you have to worry about all the other facets of a wedding, which are you know, the other vendors, uh the venue having to deal with the Maitre D or whatever they've got up their ass that day. And most of the most of the time everything runs very smoothly. And sometimes it doesn't.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say tell me because you know, obviously I'm setting up the other story. Tell me a story, you know, where basically anything that could go wrong did end twice.
SPEAKER_02All right. I I'm I'm I'm gonna you've done your research, and I'm gonna share I'm gonna share one with you that that was uh basically uh it almost completely pushed me out of the industry. And it was last summer. And because I listen, I've done 1,300 weddings. I I'm I've got more behind me than I do ahead of me. And I've quite frankly put myself in a position where I don't have to shoot weddings anymore. I take legacy clients and I'm, you know, I'm I'm still working, I still love it. I'm another conversation, maybe later in the conversation, is trying to find purpose with my work right now. Um, because this literally just wanted me to just hang it up. Okay. I took a wedding and it was an absolutely lovely couple from the Congo. Stunning couple, beautiful people, beautiful family. And I will not say the name of the venue, but it is a venue that is closest to my home. Okay, happens to be in Verhees, New Jersey. Happens to be called Mansion. Sarah, I said it. So I'm there and I'll try to make this quick. I go there a couple days before, and I said, uh, hi, I'm Cliff. I'm going to be photographing uh the wedding of these lovely people on Saturday. And automatically they come up with this. They're like, Well, you you do know that you know there's another wedding after that, you're not gonna be able to use the gardens for photos. I'm like, do they know that? Well, we told them that when they booked. They booked a year and a half ago. You think they remember that? Well, that's their problem. You're gonna have to tell them. I said, You know, you're gonna have to tell them. All right, we're gonna jump ahead to the wedding. After the ceremony, I'm taking pictures. They're like, all right, you gotta get out of the gardens. Uh okay, fine. Uh, we'll use the ballroom for the portraits of the families, right? Yeah, go, no problem. We get up there. Matre D comes and literally comes behind me as I'm shooting these pictures. You got 15 minutes. I said, What? You told me I had a half hour. No, we got to start getting this room ready. You got 15 minutes. All right, leave me alone, I'll get this done. No problem. Comes back up to me, Scott, and whispers in my ear, says, You got two minutes. I turn around. I said, You gotta be fucking kidding me. He says, No, you got two minutes. I said, Well, if you leave me alone, maybe I'll do my job. Why don't you go do yours? He says, I am doing my job. You get off my floor right now. I said, And I started getting into it with him. And then the wedding planner looks at me, right? I never worked with her before. She looks at me, she said, Cliff, not in the not in front of the client. And I look at her in front of everybody. I said, Don't you fucking start with me too. Okay. So I look at my assistant, my assistant, she looks at me, all right, and I just I felt I was only a little embarrassed, but I I I was in the right. I said, I the truth of the matter at that point, Scott, I had no more fucks to give. And so it's that type of situation where you have to battle everybody. You think I'm doing this for me? I'm doing this from my client. We're all working for the same client here. Why are you battling me with this? Because frankly, it's it was his sandbox, and I was in it. Oh my. And and those are the types of things that wedding photographers have to deal with because we are just vendors.
SPEAKER_01That's the truth. On your website, you differentiate between different kinds of weddings, you know, different uh ethnicities of the of the wedding couple. Um, are they really so different? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02The the you know, the the the the I guess the emotionality of it, if you will, for lack of better uh semantics, is similar, okay, but the cultures are vastly different. The ceremonial aspects are vastly different. Some of the approaches are different. I've learned during a Sikh wedding, for example, you don't turn your back to the book, okay. Uh during uh Hindu weddings, you take your shoes off before you get on that Munda. Uh during uh prep stages at Indian weddings and Asian weddings, those shoes come off before you enter that home. You know, there's certain respectful uh traditions and and cultural elements that you have to learn in order to adapt to most different situations. Um so I I've I've loved the fact that I I've been uh I I've probably photographed more South Asian weddings than any white man alive. Okay. And I'm proud of that, and that they've taken me into their homes and their families and have treated me with such respect and dignity. And and I it's been a privilege. Um you know, uh what listen, I'm I'm I'm a uh I'm a Jew that has photographed many Muslim weddings in in many, many different uh uh areas of our country and and you know, welcomed with open arms. So yeah, there's there's uh there's a difference from from one to the next. And it's mostly cultural, ceremonial, um, but it's you know, love is love, as they say, right? Not to sound you know trite.
SPEAKER_01You you said in another interview, someone asked you what the most important thing um about being a wedding um or being in the business of wedding photographer. And and you didn't say gear, you didn't say talent, you didn't say light, you said customer service. Yeah. Um so tell me in from the business side, um what is excellent customer service if you are getting into or you know you're uh a wedding photographer?
SPEAKER_02There's a few different factors. Um and and again, this was an evolutionary process for me as well, which was um and and again, this is tough for me to swallow because it's so true. And and and and I used to be a little bit of a prick, Scott, where I did, you know, I used to think that they were my images. They're not my images, they're their images, they're the clients' images. So, you know, I used to be so high and mighty about my friggin' artistic integrity. And now I know and I have I have a pretty good understanding of what we both want. And so I'm able to provide them with not only, you know, what I want, but what they need, what they want, and you know, you take the ego out. I used to go in with a big head and you know, want to win awards and all that stuff is meaningless. And you go in with humility, you go in without a chip on your shoulder, you go in hoping to what uh my ex-wife and I what we used to say, go make a picture. Meaning, go and make something on that given day that you're gonna come away with, even if it's just a single single frame, that's gonna be so outstanding that it's gonna just warm your photographic heart. And the truth is, it seldom happens. But if you go in with that goal, then you're not only gonna satisfy the client, you're gonna satisfy yourself as well.
SPEAKER_01I told you before we start recording, you know, by the grace of whatever, um, BH put out a video just this morning, the morning of our recording here, um, about trends in wedding photography. Um, this one. Well, okay. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna read all of them to you. Um But one of them, which deals with customer service, um, they said the trend is that galleries are becoming smaller and photographers are taking back the task of curation. Um, do you agree with that? No.
SPEAKER_02Why why wouldn't why would okay. First of all, let's talk about uh along those lines, let's talk about AI culling. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02As much as I am a fan of my post-processing with the use of aftershoot, I don't think any culling software is there yet. I'm the one that photographed it. I can sure as hell sit down for 90 minutes and call through 5,000 images. It's not that difficult. Right. Okay. So that's I want to control that. That's number one. So if I shoot, you know, four or five thousand images and I narrow it down to around 900, 950 somewhere in that neighborhood. Um, I think that's a pretty decent take from a good wedding. Uh, and I will process those, I will polish those, I will refine those images, put them on a gallery for those people to have. I really don't understand where that comment or trend is coming from, but you know, I still think that the way that I do it is is, you know, very sound.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Like I said, this is just what they're saying the trends are. So I I'm not gonna back any of them myself. Um, they say physical photographs are becoming more and more important again. The the the actual print itself. Do you agree with that one?
SPEAKER_02I don't think it's ever gone away. I I still I still think it's important. Uh I think it has always been important. I just think that the phones have made it less important over time, and I think people are finally realizing how important they really are. You know, here's the other thing. Uh we've got JPEGs, okay? We've got uh, you know, uh short-sighted people, you know, 15 years ago, well, we'll give you a disc of JPEGs. Who who's got disk drives? Okay, and and then uh the the question remains, you know, the JPEG. How long is a JPEG going to be the standard compression algorithm? Right. Are people gonna be uh able to view JPEGs 25 years from now? I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I got a Betamax viewer in my base, maybe exactly.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. You know, uh what you know, you go for if you go for any type of uh radiological imaging, they're gonna give you a disc if you want it. Well, who's got a disk drive to look at it? Except for radiologists.
SPEAKER_01Come on. The the trends here, one of the things she said was well-lit medium format film photography is making a comeback, which yeah, okay. God bless them.
SPEAKER_02That's all I gotta say about that. God bless them. I will take my my Z8 and and its 45 megapixel sensor. And you know, I you know what I think though, in all seriousness, I think part of it is the process. And there's nothing wrong with the process of shooting film and processing it and printing it. And I think there's something beautiful about that. You know, and yes, there is a certain depth and feel to film still, uh, that it's tough for digital to emulate, but I don't think the layman can tell the difference if you put them side by side.
SPEAKER_01It is unfair to reduce your entire career down to just weddings, even though you are one of the 10 best in the universe.
SPEAKER_02I really appreciate you you you that that is, you know, because I began this by saying, you know, I'm I'm a photographer, man, and and you know, being pigeonholed as a wedding photographer is a disservice, I think, to a lot of wedding photographers.
SPEAKER_01Well, go go to your website and there's a picture of Shaq sitting right in the middle of it. Uh, you do portraits, you do headshots, you do branding and events and stuff. Um, so well, first of all, tell me about working with Shaq. I mean, he's a character.
SPEAKER_02Well, the commercial side of my business uh, you know, is is not really mentioned because of the, you know, I'm a you know, wedding and portrait ambassador for Nikon, but you know, commercially, uh I probably do, you know, 50-50 commercial and and weddings. Okay. Um, you know, I do uh stuff for law firms and ad agencies and all kinds of different things. But the Shaq thing came up with the absolutely wonderful people from the Epson Corporation uh had hired me to work on the ecotank campaign. Uh, and I I worked with Shaq for a couple of years, uh, had the privilege of photographing him probably seven or eight different shoots, uh, uh spending uh uh a multiple days. And man, he is everything and more that you think he might be. He is hysterical, he is profane. Um and you know, his mom is just an absolutely lovely woman. And you should see when his mom's on set, uh, he he behaves like you would not believe an F-bomb did not come out of his mouth. Otherwise, you could see her, you know, taking him by the ear and dragging him off the set. Uh but he was kind, he was funny. Uh he grabbed my phone and and and uh my daughter was having a bad day, grabbed my phone, did a video for my daughter. Um, it just he is he's a he's a rare talent, he's a he's a rare human. And um I I was really, really uh privileged to work with someone like that.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean uh you've got a lot of corporate stuff. I mean, you know, how does golf courses fit with the rest of the stuff you're doing?
SPEAKER_02Uh I kind of fell into that. First of all, I'm a I'm a golfer. I play four days a week or so, sometimes five during the season. And um it's a love. I love golf, I love photography, and uh I've been able to photograph a few different courses uh in a really different way and um uh using some stitching to uh to make these 26, 27,000 pixel wide images that that uh some places have uh you know printed these gigantic images for their clubhouse. Um how did it happen? I mean, it's I just kind of fell into it like I've done everything else, but you know, uh earlier in my career, you know, I I worked for the Comcast Corporation and Subaru and and uh you know various, you know, Ogovian Matter and and all these ad agencies in Philadelphia. Um so I had a really diverse background thanks to the contacts I made at the Philadelphia Inquirer. Um, and you know, that's just expanded into many different arenas, you know, all the way leading up to today. But being a photographer means uh and the best way to put it, and I'm gonna steal uh my friend Joe McNally's uh uh expression, he's a general assignment photographer. And on the other hand, he likes to say he's a problem solver. So to be able to go into any situation and come out with pictures, it really shows versatility. And you know, I've probably said in just about every podcast I've ever done is that Joe is is a photographer that every photographer should aspire to be like uh in in every way. Uh and he has been a tremendous influence on so many of us.
SPEAKER_01You know, I I'm looking at all your galleries, I'm looking at at the work that you've done over time. Um, and and narrative seems to be one of the things, one of the threads um that goes all the way through. You are a visual storyteller. Um do do you do you think about storytelling when you go up in the morning? Or is is that innate, or is is it the individual image that is sort of sacrosanct for you?
SPEAKER_02I mean, it's a goal. It doesn't happen all the time. If there's a story to be told, absolutely. I think from you know my very basic foundation as a photojournalist, I you know, the desire to tell that story through images is there. And, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna quote John White, who uh I've had the privilege of meeting through Nikon. Um, we are all visual servants, is how he likes to put it. And to be able to, you know, tell a story through photographs, I mean, isn't that the essence of what we all do anyway? No matter what the genre, I don't care if it's you know, portraiture or wedding or or or you know, photojournalism, whatever it might be, you're still telling a story with that camera. And you know, I I I the reason you found me was my rant a couple weeks ago. And I think if there are photographers that are listening that that maybe haven't done this for a living, um, you know, when you're taking pictures and and use intent. Think about why. And then even more importantly, why not? Um, and and that's what I try to do uh at times, because you know, a lot of times it's just action-reaction. But if you can tell a story, hell yeah. And and ask questions. You know, ask questions of your clients and and learn a little bit about them. And maybe there's some things that are that uh are going on in their lives that um, you know, just some interjection with your photographs can really help them get through something or remember something or remember someone. Um and I think you know, that's where photography can be so beautifully powerful.
SPEAKER_01Cliff Buddy, this has been fantastic. I have enjoyed this conversation. Your work is is just mind-boggling at times. Um, and I'm looking, you know, through all of that we haven't even got into art direction. We haven't even got into um, you know, setting up a portrait and how to compose one of those. We could talk for hours and hours. I'm a great fan. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02You are the most thorough interviewer I have ever encountered, and I appreciate you. I appreciate the time you took to learn a little bit, and I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation too. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Frames. Because excellent photography belongs on paper. Visit us at www.readframes.com. That's readframes.com.