FRAMES Photography Podcast
FRAMES Photography Podcast
Dawn Hester
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In today's episode, W. Scott Olsen speaks with Dawn Hester, a retired professional photographer whose work moves between landscapes, macro, small towns, historic places, events, and sports.
You can visit Dawn’s website here.
Find out more and join FRAMES here.
Because when you're working for the bureau, there were guidelines. You know, there was guidelines. So I had to break that mold. I didn't have any more guidelines anymore. I can go out and shoot. I didn't have to worry about it being right or wrong. I can go back. So I had to break all of that and just the rules. I had to get through that yellow tape. You know, I had to break through it like I could do this any way I want now.
SPEAKER_00This photography podcast is brought to you by Frames, a quarterly printed photography magazine. Here is today's host, W. Scott Olson, with another fascinating conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to another podcast from Frames Magazine. My name is Scott Olson. And today today, folks, man, we are going to have such a good time today. Because I got to tell you, the other day, I was on the internet and I was looking at the Vital Impacts website in their print sale. And I was looking at it, you know, and I was thinking two things. Sometimes we go and we look at great photography, and the result is a little depressing. You think, oh my God, there's so much good work out there. What in the world am I doing? How am I going to be able to contribute to this conversation? But more often than not, we go out and we look at some great work and we feel inspired. Something grabs us in our head and our heart and says, look, there are people out there doing magnificent work, and we are all a part of this community. You get itchy. You want to go out and you want to start shooting. So I'm scrolling along and I'm looking at work and I'm thinking, this is beautiful, this is beautiful, this is really cool. And then I get to one that I just, it absolutely stopped my entire day. This is an early morning shot at the Badlands National Park in South Dakota, which is an area. Um I live up here on the eastern side of North Dakota, North Dakota. So this is an area I actually know fairly well. And it is a landscape that is just absolutely breathtakingly stunning. But it's also very difficult to photograph because you can overdo it really easily. The Badlands, they are really, really present in their colors and their shapes. They're also really, really subtle in their colors and their shapes. And I looked at this shot and I thought, oh my heavens, here's somebody who got it right. Here's somebody who caught not only the drama of the site, but the nuance, the quietness. Um, and so I look up and here's this photographer named Don Hester. And I'm thinking, I don't know Don Hester's work. And so I start doing a little digging. I said, and oh my heavens, there's a podcast back there, there's a book, there's all sorts of projects, there's a history here that is just as interesting and curiosity-provoking as you can imagine. And I felt really kind of blessed because I discovered a brand new voice, a brand new talent that I had not seen before. And I am really, really looking forward to today's conversation about landscape work, about port, you name it. Dawn's got her stuff um in just about every genre, which is a point she makes about her work. Dawn, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Thanks. Nice being here, Scott. Nice inviting me here. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I I am looking forward to this. Um, I I want to get to this Badlands picture in in a little bit because it's it's one I want to get to the trees and the roots and a bunch of the other projects too. But I also want to start with your history because you have a bit of history that is uh, let's say, unusual for uh a lot of photographers. You know, you you were finishing up this is how I understand the story, correct me where I'm wrong. You were not really into photography from like, you know, birth to age 16. Um, you know, you grew up with a single parent at the end of high school, you know, you were looking to find a job. You went and took the test for um the military and you got into the Air Force. And it was the recruiter who said, Have you thought about photography? Is that right? Yes, that's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and what about you said yes. Yeah, you know, I was going through, I okay, you know, with the military, you had to take the ASPAS test, and I didn't I didn't do well, but I did good enough for the Air National Guard, which is under the Air Force window. And uh, you know, I'm going through all the jobs and everything, and I saw photography. I'm like, cool, I'll think I'll do that. And that's where it all started.
SPEAKER_01But I mean, that there were a thousand other options there. Yes. So, I mean, what was it? What was it about photography? Was it just the mindset of running around with a camera that seemed appealing? Or did you have some kind of appreciation of the visual arts performance?
SPEAKER_02Well, it was like when I'm going through, scrolling through all the jobs, it was like, eh, eh, eh, and I saw photography, I'm like, cool. Just it was just a cool thing to do. So I selected that, and you know, 30-something years, I just was a photographer.
SPEAKER_01Oh man. So what what do they teach you in photography school in the media or in the military school?
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, back then, you know, it was in Denver, and you know, it was the basics, you know, how you process film, you know, black and white colors, slides. You know, we used four by five cameras and worked our way up and just, you know, outdoors doing like journalistic type work, because that's what a lot of time the military does. We go out and take uh we cover other parts of the military, whether it's construction or the or clinic area. And then we learned a little bit about flash photography, because we did a lot of studios, especially when people are for promotions and things like that. So we from the basics, we did all the basic training that you can think of in photography.
SPEAKER_01Okay, now so this would have been more of a promotional approach to the photography than kind of conflict photography.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Did they teach you rules? Was there a way to shoot that was you know the Air Force way?
SPEAKER_02I would say so because you know, we did a lot of, I call it grips and grins, you know, because and you know, if there's a uh a war ceremony, we documented it. Everything that happened in the military, it was documented. So if you like you say, you got the construction people out there building a uh new dorm, we documented it. So they just taught you how to, you know, composition. Back then, you know, there was no auto this, auto that, so we used the light meter. We had to learn how to use the light meter. A flash with the old flash with the bulbs. You know how that was. I mean, so you're talking about 1976?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I remember I I remember 76.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so back back in the back of the day, as I would say, you know, we started from there, and everything about photography you can think of, you know, and then they had to learn how to add lip, because you know, it everything's not perfect. You think you're gonna go and do something and it doesn't work, so you have to manipulate it in some way. So yeah, it was a little bit of everything.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So you're you're shooting for the Air Force, and I still needed a job. Yeah. And then and then you then you okay, you know, tell me what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02I mean, you know, one week in a month, 15 days uh a year, just wasn't it. So, you know, I still had to come back home and look for a job. So I'm looking through the local newspaper and the FBI advertise. So I applied for it, and you know, about eight months later I was accepted, and I was in the mail room for almost a year. And then the position in the photography lab came out, I applied for it, and with my background in the military as a photographer, that helped me to get into the photography field with the Bureau.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So so when you started with the FBI, it was not as a photographer, just that that thing came along. That has to be you know, maybe I'm romanticizing it here, but that has to be one of the most disturbing and interesting and compelling and and you know, everything kind of photographer there is. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Because when I started out, it was um it was like had a big photo lab, like a big Ritz camera where everything came in from the field, we processed, we printed, we did all that, and then we would go up, you know, director had a you know, uh a war ceremony, we documented all that. So it was like a big photo lab. Film came in from the field office, we processed the print, print, print, it was like a mass production from two by twos up to 40 by 60 prints we made. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and but and you started shooting for them as well.
SPEAKER_02Yep, I saw uh everybody had to shoot a little bit, you know, to do the grip and grins, because you never know if the guy who was doing that, if he was sick or on vacation, somebody had to fill in. And then we also had another unit, the scientific forensic, forensic photography. And I applied for that, and then I got into the forensic side of the bureau.
SPEAKER_01And that was tell me say, tell me what that part of your life is.
SPEAKER_02Forensic was was like, you know, a lot of times people think, oh, a lot of dead bodies. I'm like, no, we have body parts. So say, like, for example, um this guy murdered this young lady, and before she died, she scribbled something in her hand. Before they buried her, they you know sent the hand to us, and we had to find a way to enhance it to see what it was she scribbled. So we shot black and white color, infrared, and most of the stuff in the studio we shot was eight by ten film. So it and then you know, like maybe obliterated writings or indented writing, shoe and tire impression, you named it, you know, it was sent to us, and we have to enhance it for the evidence that they were trying to um take.
SPEAKER_01You know, that that brings up a really I mean and maybe not in those days when it was you know film, but when you're enhancing a photograph that becomes evidence, aren't you in kind of a gray area there where you can enhance it to mean something? Maybe it didn't?
SPEAKER_02We always talk to examiner what we were doing, and and when when we were hands, so we had different films, you like Tri-Act 100, 400, ectopan, and then you had the different papers from F to F5. So we had to figure out, you know, what would work, and then, you know, of course, when you shoot it, do you shoot it side lighting? Do you use a filter? Do you use flash? Do you do this? Do you this and this and this and this? So that's what I meant. You know, we wasn't manipulating anything, it was just trying to bring the evidence up with the types of film and the papers that we had and the filters.
SPEAKER_01And and they didn't have a rule like everything had to be at F8, or everything had to be, you know, in in a with a clear background.
SPEAKER_02No, because our job was to enhance the evidence. We created ugly images. You know, like you normally go and you shoot a portrait nice and pretty. Our images were ugly because we were trying to bring up the evidence. So when I went from the photo processing unit from printing just, you know, machine prints mostly. Then when I went up to the forensic for the first couple of months, I had to learn how to print ugly. Do you remember what your first field assignment was? My first field assignment was with my supervisor. Uh I had a lot of OJT in the studio. I had a lot of OJT. And the first field, I went out with film and I we had photo logs. Every time we photographed, we wrote it down. You know, what it was, what direction, all that kind of stuff. So my first one, I went out with film and I did his photo lab, I photo book, and he was telling me what was going on. The second time, I went out and he did my photo log. So that was how I was getting training. And I did that once or twice with film, and then he said, Okay, you're ready to go. Which means crime scene come out, I was able to go and do what I need to do, you know, the job and everything. Was that emotionally difficult? Yeah, because you know you can't go back. Yeah. I mean, you you you I mean you're shooting film, you shooting flash outside. Um you always had two bodies or two lenses or everything, because you can't go back. Once the crime scene was closed, that was it. And then when you come back, you didn't send it down to the lab to process through the machine, you hand process because you don't want no machines to have any oops because you can't go back.
SPEAKER_01So, okay, you you are you you retire from the Air Force National Guard after 30 years, you retire from the FBI after 39 years. I mean, you talk about magnificent careers here. And the first thing you do is go on a 365-day photo project to, you know, instead of taking a break saying, I'm gonna put the camera down and I'm gonna pick up, you know, needlepoint or auto mechanic, whatever. You decide you're gonna dive even deeper into the process of photography. First of all, tell me why. But but tell me about that 365 project. What was that like?
SPEAKER_02The reason why I did that, I knew a couple people, once they retired, they turned around and came back as contract workers. You know, you know, it's like, you know, and I think maybe because the job was their home basically, all their friends were work-related. And I didn't want to get in that where, oh, I need to go back and work. So I knew one thing I could do pretty good was photography. So I needed something to keep me busy. So I would go out and I was I I became a mall walker. When you go to the mall early in the morning, and I walked, and I always had a camera in my car. I said, okay, I'll just I'll just do this little project, you know, because I read up on what people are doing and everything. I said, let me let me try that. And it was interesting because when I went back, I put a book together. And when I went back, I saw a lot of stuff happen. I lost two best friends throughout the year, and just some things that, you know, that I photographed and I laughed. Because I remember one day I didn't feel like going out. So I just took my phone. I was sitting here watching Murder She Wrote, took a picture of my foot with you know JB Fletcher on TV, and you know, so it was just an interesting just to keep me busy and not think, oh, I have to go out and work. Because I'm like, I don't have to go out and work, I just gotta find something to keep me busy.
SPEAKER_01You have a great quote out there, though. You said you that year you learned to shoot what you wanted to shoot. Yes. Why why why did you have to learn that? And how did you discover what you wanted to shoot?
SPEAKER_02Because when you're working for the bureau, there were there were guidelines. You know, there were guidelines. So I had to break that mold. I didn't have any more guidelines anymore. I can go out and shoot. I didn't have to worry about it being right or wrong. I can go back. So I had to break all of that and and just the rules. I had to get through that yellow tape. You know, I had to break through it like I could do this any way I want now. Take a deep breath. I don't have to rush, I can go back, I could take my time if I mess up, who cares? Back then, when you're working for a living, you know, you couldn't do that. You just couldn't do that. And you know, it was always in your mind, do the best you can. And then I had to break, and I'm still breaking through that mode. I still got that. Oh, I gotta do it this way, and all this guy, it gotta be right, it gotta be square, can't be crooked. Oh, I see a dust here. I still, you know, I'm still it's just perfection that I learn. You know, because the get you know, you're doing this is like you gotta do it right because you can't go back. And you know, now I'm trying to still try after 10 years of of retirement, I'm still trying to break that mode. Okay, I could do this, I can do it this way, I can do it that way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I mean, this is you know in music, this is called improvisation, which of course is at the end of a rigorous formal training. You gotta learn all the rules, then you get to go have fun. You mean you don't start by you know just goofing around. Did you discover your subjects? You know, well, let me let me where I'm going with this. Um, you have got a great line, what you call your tagline, you know, you know, capturing what is here today and maybe gone tomorrow. A little bit of this and a little bit of that. So many photographers either feel like they need to or they choose to sort of compress their artistic focus, their landscape only, or their portrait only, you know, kind of stuff. You've got a little bit of this, a little bit of that. How did you discover voice? How did you discover style when you were getting out of all those rules? Well, even with the bureau, it was like rules.
SPEAKER_02I did a little bit of this, I did shoe impressions, I did tie impressions, I did aerials, I did surveillance, I did lands, no, I didn't do landscapes, but you know, I I did crime scenes, so I did a little bit, this, and that, and that, and this. So now I can go back and do the same thing, but I can learn differently. Like I can play around my death of field, I can play around with shadows, macro, you know, just all different kinds of things. And every time I would go out and walk, I will walk and see something interesting. I go grab my camera. I'm like, oh, let me go back and photograph that because it's just interesting to me.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so that is the only rule. If it's interesting to you, it's good enough for a shot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And and and and I and I think a lot of times um I photograph things that people just walk by. And my thing is everything has a story. And like you said, you know, it might be there today. Oh, I'm gonna go back tomorrow, but it might not be there tomorrow. And I like it, so let's document it the best way I can now, because tomorrow it may be gone.
SPEAKER_01Do you ever pre-plan shots? Like I'm gonna go out at certain time of the day with at a certain angle, so you know, so it's less serendipitous?
SPEAKER_02Every now and then I will go out and do some sunrise, sunsets. Okay, make sure I got my filters, a couple lenses, or maybe one lens, because sometimes I get lazy and just say, and and I I tell myself, take one lens out and make it work. And I use that a lot. Um, and then if if I go out there and you know how it is, Mother Nature is not doing what she wants to do, you're like, okay, now what? So I just wander around a little bit and maybe see something interesting, try something different, maybe a low angle, maybe a high angle, you know, and I just just I'm just learning, just I call it playing around because that's what I do. I just play around and just see something. And I learned years ago, don't delete anything from my camera because by the time I get back, I oops, I deleted the wrong one.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you know, what I love about not deleting things is you take an image, it's whatever it is. Ten years later, we are you know so completely different. You look at that same image and you go, oh you know, I was not aware enough to realize that I captured something perhaps by accident.
SPEAKER_02Um, that's you know, really a lot of times we go back, and it might be a wide image, but you see something inside of that and you crop it. And then with the new, you know, with the software getting better and better and better, you're like, oh yeah, because our eyes are different too. We take a break and we go away from it to go back, oh, that's pretty decent, you know. So I try my best not to delete anything or get rid of a lot of stuff right away. I just let it linger into my hard drives and everything. I said, I'll go back later because it might be something there.
SPEAKER_01Other other than details, I mean, you you've said in many places that you love macro, you love, you know, getting into the details of stuff. But this really has other implications as well. I mean, you look at your tree roots, that you know, those kind of things. The the complication in those shots is is really, really appealing. And I I love, you know, you said um, this is you know in in another venue, you said, you know, when I visit national parks, I take the iconic shark shot, but then I look deeper. I look to what people are missing. You also talk about going to small towns on Sunday mornings to try and get to something at their essence. When you go out, how do how do you describe to yourself, before you've taken the first shot, what you're looking for?
SPEAKER_02Well, when I go to small towns, a lot of small towns still have a lot of character. Early in the morning, on a Sunday morning before people start getting up, moving around, going to church, because I don't like interrupting people, you know, because I understand how that is that two days you gotta get back to work. So I like to go, and it's nice and quiet, and then you I have a chance to walk up and down the street and start looking at the details of these buildings that they don't make like anymore. And it's just I just find them fascinating because I'm from a small town in West Virginia, so every time I go home, I ride around to hit the back roads and see if their farmlands left or if they sold it. Now you got these three, four hundred thousand dollar homes there. And you know, once they're gone, you know, that's it. You know, my history of growing up in the country is, you know, they come to little cities and everything. So that's why I like small towns, because it got so much character, and you won't see it anymore.
SPEAKER_01I I think so many of us who are photographers, you know, could equally be called historians. Um you know, that what we're trying to do is is an act of preservation, which is one of the reasons why photographers seem to love patina. We seem to love decaying buildings and blown-out farmsteads and stuff. Um, it's because one good storm and it's not gonna be there anymore. Um, and and we need to preserve it. Tell okay, I I want to get into a bunch of your images and your projects and and that kind of stuff. The so tell me about the South Dakota Badlands shot. You know, and and first of all, what in the world were you doing there to begin with? Um and then you were there, I know you were there for a couple of days. What you know, what were you doing?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I would look at a map. Well, you know, a couple years ago, somebody had something on Facebook. Say name all the states you've been to. And I named them all. And I'm like, oh, I'm down to like 10. So I start looking. And then when I do, I'm like, well, what's here in North Dakota? And I start pulling up and I see these parks. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Then, you know, park, then you got the um um the monuments and and the crazy horse all in the area. I said, Well, I could take a trip there, and I don't like long trips because even when I was working, we our trip lasts three to four days, and that was it. And I like that. I go in, okay, do what I need to do, walk around a little bit, and I'm back home. And I said, Man, that is really nice. And I was able to go to the Badlands two days, and I wished I had stayed there and went four straight days. But I didn't know, you know, I'm like, oh my goodness. And I got there a little bit after sunrise. So was it maybe a couple people there? And I just stood there, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is beautiful. You know, I'm like, wow, you know, and then I start, you know, I had my camera, you know, sitting there and I set it all up and got my images, and I just stood there and like, this is gorgeous. And then, you know, riding around and shooting and on the one way to come back of the way the sun was hitting it, and I'm like, it was just it's just one of those things like wow. And I'd never been there, I didn't know what to expect. I knew it was a national park, but just getting there and just looking at it, you know, my mouth just like, oh. And the colors are just this it's just unbelievable. And I always say, I need to go back, I need to go back, I need, and I really need to go back. Maybe next year I'll go back.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and was so was this shot on the first or the second day? Maybe that first day. And and is is this a handheld shot, or you know, just you know Oh no, I had a tripod. Okay, so you you you did have some time to consider because I mean you you nailed everything about this, the the framing, the composition, the colors.
SPEAKER_02Um, and and if you said, Oh, this was the handheld as I was, you know, doing something else, then I would have been really pod, I had a whole nine yards with me and took my time and did a couple exposures, you know, put it in magnet mode, and you know, because it was no rush, you know. After I finished like gawking at it, and I, you know, because it was so beautiful, just you know three or four different shots here and there and everything. And yeah, oh, tripod, definitely. Definitely a tripod. Oh man.
SPEAKER_01Okay. That makes me feel a little bit better. Um by the way, you know, I really, really want to get to the tr the trees and the roots and all that in just a second. But there's a couple there's a couple other stories that you've told that I I've just got to hear more about. First of all, you went to a workshop in Wimberley, Texas. And going back, I forget whether it was going back or no, it was on the way back, somebody there said they were going through Waco, Texas. And you had been there once before for the FBI. Well, first of all, tell me about I mean I I mean my gut can't imagine what that must have been like um when you were there doing forensics. But so what was that like? But then what was it like to go back, not so much as a documentarian, but as an artist?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, everybody knows what happened with the Bravidian, um uh the branch and all that. And we went and we did the crime scene the whole time we were there and all that, but I never had a chance to have closure. And when I drove out to Texas, I didn't know I was that close. And one lady said she was driving. I looked on the map and like, oh, you're two hours away. I said, I need to get there to have my closure. And getting there, then it started coming back, you know, driving that back road, you know, you start thinking about how it was and trying to get to work, and you had all the media out there, you could just barely get through. Then I remembered in the gates, and when you walk in the when driving the gates, they had a memorial there, so I pulled over there. And I then I start remembering, I said, Oh, it's right, other people did live here in this area, you know, with all that was going on. And, you know, I paid my respects there, you know. I took some photographs, but I won't share those because just a personal thing. I I don't get into that. But it was interesting because a young man pulled up in his motorcycle and started talking. He said, I just watched the you know documentary and he's he said I had to come and see it. And I told him, I said, Well, I worked on the case. He said, Oh wow. He said, I never met anybody that actually worked on the case. We talked a little bit and then I went up the road and I start remembering. And then when I got there, you know, the only thing you see that was left, they had the pool in the back and they just left the foundation, and then everything else was gone. And of course, years after that, they had a church built, so I went inside the church and they had all the memorial. I didn't I didn't sit there and watch the video because I knew. So I kind of glanced. I didn't stay long. I I just needed to pay my respects, and then that was it. I didn't stay long at all.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so this was not a a photo or not explicitly to take photographs. No, no, no. Just to just pay my respects. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Just like uh Oklahoma City, I worked at Oklahoma City. Um I had a chance to go back to pay my respects.
SPEAKER_01I I I cannot imagine the gut wrenching that that you uh people in that job have to go through.
SPEAKER_02And then to have some closure, of course, is is a-the time people don't have closure to a lot of I just went up to New York um a couple weeks ago. Uh I didn't work the New York 9-11, I worked the Pentagon, but it because it was part of it. I went up to New York. A friend of mine was um had a uh photo exhibit with Gordon Parks. I said, Well, while I'm here, let me go downtown and pay my respects, you know, at 9-11. So I went down there and everything, pay my respects there. I paid uh in Pennsylvania a couple years ago. I went up there and paid my respects there. I just hadn't gone to the Pentagon yet. So I had to go there and and uh you know, I'm just one of the people like, you know, you know, you still think of these things, you know, when anniversaries come up, but we don't have a chance to pay our respects because we got we don't have no closure, and I try to do that if I can.
SPEAKER_01Do you have your FBI photos? No. Okay. So they they don't allow you to keep you know even for your own records, the images.
SPEAKER_02No, because everything we're doing is evidence. You know, and every now and then, you know, uh some people like we got some downtime, you know. Uh I do have a photo of me standing in front of uh uh the federal building, Oklahoma. And I do have a photograph, uh was it the uh journal building, the white journal building. I was the photographer that photographed that entire building from top, from bottom to top. And you walked through there, there was no light, so it was me and uh um maybe the um the FBI agents and maybe uh somebody who knew the building. And we'd walk in complete darkness, and maybe you might see some light. So, you know, I got a photo, got one of the guys took a photo of me by the window, and behind that you can see a little bit of the building. So a couple little things like that.
SPEAKER_01You know, I I I forget, I'm embarrassed, I forget the photographer's name, but there is that book out there called Evidence, where you know, crime scene photographs by design or accident uh achieved fine art you know composition. Um beautiful, beautiful book that's out there and and and you know disturbing in the best ways. On your website, you have got a really cool blog. Oh, thank you. No, but it and and this I think you know this grows out of um you know your podcast as well, the kind of stuff you were doing there, and we'll bring that up in a second. But I I had the first thing I read on on your blog was you know about you at the airport, and you know, you're quiet at C9 is the title of this entry, which I had to because no, I've never done that. Um but but but tell people you know what you did and why this was rewarding.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm one of those people, I don't take my camera out a lot with a lot of people around, but I was I was going to New York and I got to my gate and wasn't nobody there. I said, you know what? Now is a good time for me just to take some photos of the quietness of the airport. And the airport, you know, they're sharp looking. And uh it was a few people around, and I just took my camera out and and and I had it in monochrome mode, which I love because it just stripped away all the color. You just focus on what you're shooting. And I just did some pictures. I said, you know, it'd be a kind of fun little blob, just you know, quietness at C9.
SPEAKER_01That was it. And and the people around you, the the people that were there, they weren't upset that suddenly here you are taking pictures?
SPEAKER_02No, because um I only pointed at two, maybe two people and their back was towards me. And I'm one of those people, if there's a sound on my camera, if I could turn it off, I turn it off. It just irritates me. It just irritates me. It's like, oh my goodness, how can you do that? So, and and I was fast about it. You know, I had an aperture mode.
SPEAKER_01Well, that that is very different than your early days when you've got a camera that weighs as much of as a Toyota.
SPEAKER_02Um exactly. And you're allowed to take pictures of anything because you know you're doing your job.
SPEAKER_01So when I'm reading the blog, what I'm hearing in the background is your voice from the old podcast. Um and and I everybody, the podcast is still online. You get you know photography, photography adventures or photographic adventures? Photography adventures. Photography adventures.
SPEAKER_02Well, the podcast, I'm sorry, but the blog came first.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Oh, okay. Well, then okay. Then I'm still I I read them in the wrong order. That's okay. But the the podcast is really inspirational. It you know, it's not gear stuff, it's not best lens, you know, for photographing your cell phone. Um, it it's really trying to get at the heart of the issues that we all faced. Um, I know it started during COVID, but it was just some Tuesday evening you sat down and said, you know, gee, world, I think I'll start a podcast. Uh how how did it come to be? And then you you brought in a co-host. It ran for five seasons. It's a long time. Yeah, but okay, tell me this.
SPEAKER_02Well, um, during COVID, you know, something to do because you couldn't go out that much because, you know, I couldn't stop McDonald's go to the bathroom because McDonald's was closed. So, you know, I'm like, yeah, maybe try this podcast. I had a cousin, he was doing a podcast, so I had, you know, garage band on my on my computer. I'm like, well, I could do that. I got a mic. You know, so I did something, I I read something off the blog. And I sent it to my cousin. I don't know why. He said, Oh, cuz this sounds good. I'm like, why did I go to him? Of course you want to say that. So I went to two different photographers I knew, and they don't know each other. And I said, What do y'all think? And he said, Oh, that sounds pretty good. I I think you could do that. I like, oh, okay. So, you know, I went back to my cousin. Hey, um, I need a mic. What kind of mic? He's I'll get the so I went on and got the blue yeti and everything, and I started it, and I, okay. I was just seeing if I could do it, and and it worked out pretty good, but I got to the point where okay, I'm running out things to say that I kind of know what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_01So oh, I mean, you know what you're talking about in every single one of those. Um, I I one of my favorites, which is in your last half dozen or so, was about bad weather. Do you remember what you said during that? Bad weather, bad weather. No, I don't. Basically, if the weather's bad, get up, get up. Oh, yeah. Uh you you you were saying it so often we look out the window, uh no, it's raining today. No, you know, and your advice was no, it's raining today, right? Or it's foggy or whatever. You know, this this is our heavy.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes, exactly. If I, you know, here in Florida, you know, I wake up, there's some fog. I said, Oh, I gotta go. And there's a little pier, like maybe eight minutes from me. And I always learn, I learned to have a battery charge, have a battery charge. And I'm gonna go down there real quick, and I fog and an old pier and everything, and I could shoot a little bit, and I'm like, okay, I'm good. Go back home.
SPEAKER_01Somebody in your life, because I think every photographer has this person, looks at you and says, Haven't you taken at least 300 pictures of that pier before? And you look at them and say, Yes, I have.
SPEAKER_02Um because I know there's something there I could do different. There's something, there's something there, somewhere, different lens. You know, I had an old uh fisheye lens. Take the fisheye lens and played around with it a little bit, like, oh, okay. Or, you know, things are bad, convert it to black or white.
SPEAKER_01One of the other ones, and I I don't know this, I think no, the the last one you did was about books, you know, uh photo books that you had enjoyed, um, sort of sending everybody off and into uh other voices. But you also did one about when you hit a brick wall. What you know, what do you do when you've got not writer's block, but photographer's uh block? And I found that to be really, you know, inspirational. I mean, you you were telling all the other photographers listening, you know, it's okay, kids, you know, you'll get over it. Was inspiration really your goal for the podcast? It was just, can I do it?
SPEAKER_02Seriously. Like, you know, in the middle of COVID and everybody else got their podcast. I'm like, can I do this? You know, and that's it. I mean, you know, and it I I I did it. I'm like, okay.
SPEAKER_00Let's take just a quick break. We hope very much that you're enjoying today's episode. The very fact that you are listening to this podcast suggests that photography means a lot to you. And if that's the case, you might want to have a look at Frames Quarterly Printed Photography Magazine. We truly believe that excellent photography belongs on paper. Visit readframes.com to find out more about our publication and use the coupon code podcast to receive a recurring 10% discount on your new Frames magazine subscription. And now back to today's conversation.
SPEAKER_01I I I listened to a good many of the Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Well, every single one, I I felt energized. I felt I gotta get out and do some shooting.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, and every now and then somebody said, Oh man, I really miss your podcast. I'm like, really? They say, Yeah. I said, You really listen to that? And then my blog, people say, I love your blog because I'm living my life through you places I never thought I would go. I'm like, really? And I'm just doing it just because to try it out and see if I can do it or not, you know, just one of and maybe because I don't put a lot behind anything, it works out.
SPEAKER_01You you work in color and black and white, a little bit in infrared. Do you see any of those as defining, or is it just whatever suits the moment?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, infrared, we shot a lot of infrared in the studio in the bureau, you know, trying to lift up um uh ink impressions underneath another one, or anything infrared came in handy. So I'm like, I would have how it would be infrared landscapes. So I did a little research and everything. I saw some landscapes out there, people doing it. I'm like, man, I could do that. And then I read it and said, Oh, the best time of the year is to shoot infrared in the fall. Well, I was living in Virginia, West Virginia, you know, my mountains and you know, we have fall weather with the clouds. I'm like, oh, okay. Then I found this place where I can get infrared lenses. And then um I found the right one for my 18 and 135 for my Fuji. And uh, once I got the hang of it, I'm like, this is really cool. And then you can convert it to black and white, and but one thing I I I edited a lot of stuff in Capture One, and how you shoot is with the Fuji cameras, capture one would bring it in that way. So, you know, with the infrared, I put in black and white because red, you can't see anything. So I put in black and white, and with capture one, it uploaded with it as black and white, which was really nice. So it was just interesting to shoot that. Uh, I haven't done much here. I gotta get a I got rid of my my lens, so I have to get another filter uh for the lenses that I have and see what works. And then when you look for a lens, um you gotta be careful of a hot spot. Certain lenses don't work well with infrared. And then I'm like, oh, so that's why our film at studio had the hotspot in the middle because it wasn't the right lens. But for us, we didn't care because we got what we needed, you know, to photograph so we can print it. I'm like, oh. So you know, you always learn and stuff. So that's what that black thing was, what was a hot spot?
SPEAKER_01So, but you you don't define yourself as a primarily black and white or color or infrared or anything else. You know, whatever the moment demands, that's how you're gonna try and respond.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And then sometimes you shoot it in color, you're like, hey, how would that look in black and white? So you convert it, you're like, oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, in in my own life, I much prefer black and white, but I shoot in raw. So the first thing I see is color uh when I give back to my computer. And every now and then it comes up in color, and I think, oh heavens, colors are you know, so you know, the the image is nowhere near as present uh in black and white, but that's 1% of the time for me.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01I I can live with that. Okay, you have a fantastic website, and I I have really enjoyed going through all sorts of images in here. You've got your special projects, you've got lighthouses, you've got branding, but you got two projects, and and I believe this is sort of the most current work, correct me if I'm wrong. You know, the the Cypress Trees Project and the Roots Project. First of all, I mean, tell me where the fascination comes from, but tell me what's going on. Tell me about these projects.
SPEAKER_02Well, the the um Roots Project, when I was when I moved, well, I've been in Florida for about three years, and I wasn't planning on staying in Florida. I came down to visit. I I has uh spontaneously never a visit. I retired, I spontaneously sold my townhouse in Virginia. I thought I'd drive down to Florida for the holidays, and we sitting there talking. My cousin gave me this brochure or this housing development, it was all rentals, and I went and had an appointment, and I've been here since.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Well, it's your cousin's part.
SPEAKER_02But you know, I said, okay, I need a place to walk. As in every time I go and walk someplace, I'll take my camera just in case. I found this little um park not too far from me. And as I'm walking around the park, I see this tree, and I'm like, what the heck is that? Because the roots on it was just unreal. And then I took my camera down there and looked. I'm like, what's going on? Then later on, kids were coming in, they climb all over, look at the roots, and I'm like, this is fascinating. And I said, you know what? I need to start photographing this tree. And uh I go different times of day, early in the morning, you know, not at night because everybody around the beach, but you know, it's a fog outside, try to shoot it, you know, long exposure, short exposure, try to get underneath as much as I can. And then along there, it has some other trees that have some crazy looking roots. I'm like, you know, maybe I'd be a good project here because you know, I don't have no mountains or either water or nothing, you know. So I got into it and everything. Then one of my friends here, a wildlife photographer, we got together and she told me about the cypress trees. And they only have a couple here. And we went there one time, like, oh, I said that's interesting. So I've been going back a couple times, and the last time I gone back, I was able to walk down near the cypress trees, and some of the knees were taller than me. And I'm like, wow. I said, okay. And then when I went to the workshop um in Wembley, we went to an area with cypress trees. And so I was I was able to like, oh, okay, I can really, I have a tripod and all that, so I can get some really, really good images. So the tree roots, it's just interesting, you know. And I start reading more about tree roots, how important they are with the trees and the wildlife, and you know, and how we need to preserve them and everything like that, so they can live and the wildlife can live also. So I just got into tree roots. I see something funky along the way. If I got a camera, I'll pull over if I can, and I'll take a couple photographs and and and try to document it, you know. It's just it's just it's it's an interesting project for me here, you know.
SPEAKER_01But and they are magical photographs. I mean, I mean, because there's I mean, leading lines, okay, Scott. I mean, you know, the the the lines are are are you know convoluted and curving and a mess, and you can't help but try and follow them. Um and it is to look at your images of these roots and of the cypress trees is really a a pleasant experience because it's it it rewards every little bit of ongoing curiosity. Um you start in one place and you end up someplace completely different in the frame, and the path to get from there to there is just filled with light and detail and um oh, what's the word I'm looking for here? Uh you know, a a kind of presence or a regular.
SPEAKER_02And you know, here because the sun, you know, it's always sun unless it's raining. You know, you got to hit it at the right time. And you know, I and I make sure I take my time. I have filters, I got my tripod, I'm I'll put my camera on the tripod and just Take my good old time. I like while I'm here, let me shoot at every angle that I can. And now what they're doing in the area, they are uh preserving their whole area. Um what they've been doing is adding um they dug out all around the trees. They uh adding new plants, they're supposed to keep the trees alive, and they put new sand down. So this project has been going on since maybe last October, and they're almost done. So every now and then I go down and shoot just to see the progress of it. So it's fenced around and I can't get to the tree. But that tree, I called it a little tree, and the lady uh one day she said they call it the crab tree because a lot of crabs. I'm like, really? You know, I'm scared of everything. I'm like, oh, okay. Last picture of that tree. Yeah, so you know, now with the fence, and I try to get some images with the fence and everything because it's part of history, because I'm like, you know what? Nobody else got photos of this tree except for me. I just know it, you know. And not only that one, it was a couple other ones that were really had some really unique roots as well. And I've just been just focusing on it and just like take my good old time and see what I can capture. And you know, first thing in the morning before that sun, because once that sun comes up here, oh my gosh, there's nothing you can do. It's like one of my friends back home, she's like, Well, you know, I got the light. I'm like, I'm in Florida, it's either bright or not, you know, so I can't, you know, I g I I gotta take it before it is and just go with it.
SPEAKER_01Oh you know, I'm looking at you at your Instagram page, and one of the things I really love about it is is the varied subjects in there. You know, going along a lot of landscape, a lot of trees, you know, lovely, lovely. But then all of a sudden, here's this looks like a brass or a copper lamp in front of a red wall. Real kind of minimalist composition, um, you know, based on on shape and lines and color and stuff. And, you know, two below that is a black and white image of wind generators. So there really is no limit to your curiosity, right? If it look if you are, if you think it's visually interesting, the shutter release gets better. Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And the one with the lamp with the red wall, uh uh a couple years ago when I was home at Hoppas Ferry at the old train station, they got like a little tunnel you go to get on the other side to catch the train. And that I was gone as I went down the steps, that's where that little lamp. Okay. And I'm like, oh, I've always wanted that. And I just, you know, took my time and took a couple photos of it and kept on going. And you know, uh years ago, um, you know, Scott Kelby and his photo walks when they were really, really big. The first time I went on the photo walk, I didn't understand what it was. I'm like, what's a photo walk? You know, I'm like I said, I'm one of these people, I'm a nine to five photographer. No, that's that's all I knew. So I went to one of them and I got my camera and I kind of got it up, and I'm looking in my corner of my eyes to see what people shooting. I ain't I ain't understand it. So kids shooting, I'm like, what are they shooting? And back then, Flickr, they had a page. And I was I was taking some photography too, but I didn't know what I was doing. And we had a page that you could upload with images, and I saw what everybody was shooting. I'm like, oh, they just shooting anything that comes to mind. And that's how I learned about photo walks. I I didn't have a clue. You know, I had the gear, but very, very seldom I went out and shot because you know, five days a week, I'm not gonna go out and shoot on a weekend unless it was a sports.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's it's the photo walk is is how to take three hours to walk a hundred yards.
SPEAKER_02Um what's so interesting about that, when I was in Houston Air National Guard, uh I had a lady, she was uh my video person, and she wanted to you know transfer over to photography, which was great. And I gave her a project. I said, go outside, find a rock, and photograph it ten different ways. And she said, What? I said, go outside, find a rock, and photograph it ten different ways. And she just looked at me. I said, if you could photograph it ten different ways, you're on the right path.
SPEAKER_01Don, I I gotta say, I am such a fan of your work. Thank you so much. There's one of your other galleries, because again, it's a place that I love dearly. Um, how old is your your project from the Palouse out out in Washington State and that that area? Oh my gosh, that was so oh that was fun. That was so fun. You know, you talk about in Florida, it's bright or it's not. The light on the Palouse is like nowhere else on the planet. Um Did you just go there because it was a cool place you thought you would go?
SPEAKER_02Or well, I I normally go out to Winnachi because I had family there to visit. And one of my photographer friends, she went out to the Palouse, and I had heard about it and I started doing some research. I said, Well, you know, maybe I need to go out there. And you know, they always say the best time of the year to go, but I was trying to go on the times that I normally go out to Wenatchee, and that was normally in September. I said, Well, I just gotta go when I can. And I drove out there and everything, and um I just had a ball. I like say I'm I'm from the country anyway, so I see farmland and then the hills and the different colors and the farmers out there working. It's just I just love all that. I can be out in the country every day and be happy, you know, and um, yeah, that was that was really interesting. I'm glad I went. I'm glad I went.
SPEAKER_01It's a gorgeous part of the country. But I'm also curious because you present a number of or most of the images, if not all, um, two ways, in color and in black and white. Um, why did you do in instead of deciding, why did you decide to put both up on the web?
SPEAKER_02Because sometimes if you're out there and the the light is harsh, you know, a lot of times people, I don't go out in the middle of the day because light is harsh. But sometimes if you go somewhere, I'm not gonna say, oh, I'm not gonna go out today because the light is harsh. You know, I'm I have to go back home in two days. So it's like I'm gonna shoot what I can. And then if I see, if I need to convert it to black and white to make it look better, I'll do that. But here a lot of the times you give us both. Yeah, it's just I it's it's just something about farmland that even though color is nice, but something about farm black and white, it might you of the old days when, you know, things like black and white. You know, we started photography, it was black and white. And then when you learn when you learn slides, you're like, oh, this is deep. So you know, slides are either on or off. You had no leeway with slides, you know. So, you know, a lot of times I just think sometimes black and white is more natural, more real. Sometimes like photographing people and black and white, it just looks so real.
SPEAKER_01I you know, I'm looking at these images, and and what I love is looking at the the two versions next to each other, and and they it creates a kind of conversation. You know, you start, you know, yes, you're asking which one is better, but that's not really the question. It's how am I responding to each of the two each of them? Um and and what is it calling from me? Just gorgeous. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, Don, tell me about your last outing. What you what what what was the last thing you shot? Oh, Chicago. Okay. Oh, I I read a little bit about this. Was this Christmas time?
SPEAKER_02Uh that Christmas and oh no, not take it back. New York. I just went to New York a couple weeks ago. Oh, okay. And just street photography? Well, actually, I went up for a friend of mine, uh, Beverly Price. She had a um, I think it's still going on, she has a photo uh collaboration with Gordon Parks. Yeah, okay. So then when I went downtown, we're down to the memorial, uh shot around there, and I just had um my um like a Q343 with a 43. I just like that. And I'm like, I'll I'll make it work. So I did a lot of images downtown, avoiding the memorial because I don't need that. I understand what's going on there. And I was able to photograph it with the Oculus in almost all my images. I'm like, you know, that's pretty neat. And what I did with that camera, what I liked about it, I put it in monochrome. And like I said, it wipes away all the color. I don't have to worry about what the color should be, or it's all black and white. And I'm like, all cameras should be able to do that. Just put it in monochrome, don't worry about the color and everything, because it you can change it when you get back. And I just photographed that. Now, before that, I did go to Chicago because I wanted to go in Chicago in the wintertime and walk down Michigan Avenue and eat ice cream. So I went, I went down, did that, and met a photographer fan. We went out shooting and everything, and that was fun too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we should tell it if you want to read that whole story. It is on her blog. Um, it's a great stuff. Uh, Don, I've enjoyed this. I am a fan of your work. I've enjoyed the conversation. I really appreciate this.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. I really appreciate you, and and thank you for the kind words for my work and my blog. Um, like I said, I just I'm just having fun. You know, there's no pressure. Seriously, there's no pressure. I'm not working for anybody. I just go out with my gear. I'm learning something new, I'm always learning, and I'm just having fun with it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, then then you've just become the role model for every photographer out there.
SPEAKER_00Frames. Because excellent photography belongs on paper. Visit us at www.readframes.com. That's readframes.com.