FRAMES Photography Podcast
FRAMES Photography Podcast
Jody MacDonald
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In today's episode, W. Scott Olsen speaks with Jody MacDonald, an award-winning adventure and documentary photographer whose powerful images combine breathtaking exploration with deeply human storytelling, capturing remote cultures, wild landscapes, and inspiring stories of resilience from around the world.
You can visit Jody’s website here.
Find out more and join FRAMES here.
We had um uh great white shark attack death on the boat, uh paragliding, I've been sucked into the clouds, uh motorcycling. I mean, I I kind of feel like motorcycling I'm probably have ten close calls a day.
SPEAKER_00This photography podcast is brought to you by Frames, a quarterly printed photography magazine. Here is today's host, W. Scott Olson, with another fascinating conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another podcast from Frames Magazine. My name is Scott Olson, and today, folks, oh my God, I love this job. Every now and then I get to talk to photographers who are inspiring at every single level of it seems of their existence in the universe. Their images, of course, are just roll your socks up and down good. They are insightful, they are dramatic, they're the kind of image that you stop, and you use a technical term, you go, wow. Um, they they they really grab your soul somehow. And then you start digging a little bit, you start digging into who they are, and they're living lives that, at least as far as we can tell, are the very best examples of how to move about uh being a human on this planet. They are filled with energy, they're filled with compassion and empathy, they are filled with good purpose, and you look at them and you say, I just want to be with this person. Um and you know, sometimes it is a genre that matches what we do. Sometimes it's a genre that is completely opposite to anything we've ever considered with a lens. But you look at their work and you look at their life and you just feel inspired. In other words, today we're talking with Jody McDonald. Jody, I mean, she's a National Geographic photographer. She's also worked for the Patagonia, Red Bull, BBC, Disney. Here comes the list gang. You know, HP Ford, Apple, Toyota, like a British, it just goes on and on and on. She runs photography workshops, one of which is, you know, on a motorcycle. Tell me, I don't want to do that. She has been named by Men's Journal, not one of the 25 most adventurous women of the last year or the last decade, of the past 25 years. She's taken pictures underwater, she's taken pictures up in the sky, she's taken pictures in the Arctic, she's taken pictures in the desert. And you look at her work and you just think, oh Lord, thank you. Because here is something I can aspire to, something I can appreciate as a viewer, and I am really looking forward to today's conversation. Jody, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_02Hi, well, wow. I don't even know what to say about that. I'm rolling my socks up and down, excited to be here.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_03No, that was uh quite the intro. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you well, you just I mean, uh seriously, I mean, you know, and when we get to some of your images, everyone's gonna say, oh, I know that picture. And that picture has meant something to me. Um, and and you, like I said, you've got a handful of world-famous iconic images out there. But let's get there in a second. Um, I I know I love origin stories because they they seem to imply who we're gonna become as photographers later on. Um, I I know you were born in Canada. I know you moved, your family moved to Saudi Arabia when you were two. And you you you tell stories elsewhere that you know when school breaks or holidays would come along, your parents would gather up you and and you would go to someplace they had never been. You said your childhood made you feel like Indiana Jones. Well, let's let's just stop right there, even before we get to photography. Tell me about those early travels and and why that seemed to match something in your heart and mind.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think um growing up in in Saudi felt very exotic and exciting. And I think, you know, it was a narrative that when you told people when you were traveling, or whenever I came back to Canada, people were like, wow, that's crazy. You're crazy. And, you know, being in the Middle East, I think there was a lot of you know, fear of of people living there at the time, or you're crazy, or that's that's so different, that's exotic, you know. And I think um living there, uh growing up there felt also very kind of like an adventure because um we lived in compounds. Um they segregated us when a compound is basically a walled suburban area, you know, and um they segregated us from you know the the Saudis in terms of we couldn't go to regular school with Saudis, you know, we went uh uh all the foreign foreign students there would go to an international private school. So we were all grouped together. And when I first moved to Saudi, I moved to um Damam and Dahran. And then after, I don't know, I want to say eight or nine years, I moved to Riyadh. But uh at my first school, it was part of the US embassy. So, you know, I would often see like, you know, armed guards and tanks and stuff at the gates whenever we would enter and exit and stuff like that. So I think, you know, all of that, and then going to school with foreign kids as well, but all the that whole combination of factors, I think made it feel like an adventure. And then top that with, like you mentioned, going like every school break and holiday. My parents had never traveled anywhere their whole life, so they really wanted to take advantage of those opportunities. And yeah, just then going to, you know, Africa and you know, all over the Middle East and Europe and and during these school breaks, it just made life in the world and everything feel so exciting to me.
SPEAKER_01So your folks were going to be sort of the classic places, London, Paris, you know, Cairo. I mean, clearly they're not going to Des Moines. Apologies to everybody in Des Moines.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, you know, it was funny. My parents, um, we did do Europe, but I would say they wanted to travel, I think, to the lesser-known places. Okay. Um a lot of the Middle East, a lot of Africa. Um, and again, you know, Europe for sure. But um, I think my parents were just so excited to be able to go anywhere. And I and it was one of the perks of my dad's company was like basically paid vacations, you know. So for them, for them, it was just like, oh, you know, where should we go next? And um, so it just it just felt, you know, all of it was very exciting. And my parents, my mom especially really gravitated towards adventure, so I think she liked the the lesser-known locations.
SPEAKER_01Oh, by adventure, mostly hiking, that kind of stuff?
SPEAKER_03No, I think just uh, you know, my parents were both very athletic um growing up, but then um I think just adventurous in spirit, you know. Oh, okay. Yeah, I just think my mom liked my mom has always liked, you know, the idea of going on, you know, really crazy adventures in the world and reading about them and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay. I we're we're gonna talk about the adventure spirit uh a good bit here in in just a little bit. But okay, fast forward a little bit. You've gone off to college, you're getting a degree in out, what is it, outdoor recreation? I did.
SPEAKER_03I did a bachelor's in outdoor rec, yes.
SPEAKER_01And you stumble in by accident to a photography elective. I can't tell you the number of people I've interviewed who've said that they they did exactly the same thing. Oh, I took this photography course because it was, you know, I needed a class and it seemed easy. You say this, this is you know, the first of many light bulb moments. This is this is something that changed your life. Tell me about that class. What what was it that grabbed you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I growing up, my two favorite classes were always sports or phys ed and art class. And I think when I was younger, I really enjoyed painting. And I was a perfectionist and I loved it, but man, it would take me so long to complete a painting to my level of perfection. So and I always found that really frustrating. And then when I took this photography elective in university, I was just like, wow, the immediacy of it. And I was doing a bachelor's in outdoor recreation, so I was having all these incredible outdoor experiences, and I don't know why, but it was this light bulb moment where I just thought I can now combine my passions of art and adventure by taking a camera with me and all these incredible outdoor experiences I'm having and documenting them. And I just thought, wow, what a what a great combination.
SPEAKER_01Was this still film or was this at the at the cusp of the digital age?
SPEAKER_03This was film. So this was yeah, early 2000s. Yep. It was film. And I loved the dark room. I love the whole, you know, processing it and being in the dark room. And I just loved the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What okay, so you you toodle off, you get a job as a photo editor, but that doesn't satisfy you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I did I did many jobs after college. I went and was like a mountain guide um in the west coast of Canada, and then did I was a raft guiding uh raft guide in remote areas of Alaska. Okay, and always taking my camera with me and you know, documenting it and just enjoying the whole thing, not really thinking anything much about it. And then after a while, after like a couple years of guiding, I was like, I don't know if I want to take care of people anymore, like in the wilderness. I was like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know that story.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so then I thought, well, you know, maybe I should move to the city and get a real quote unquote real job and see what that's like. And then I moved to Vancouver, Canada, and I ended up getting a photo editor job. I befriended the previous photo editor job uh editor at this uh outdoor company. It's uh Canada's equivalent to REI. It's called it, it's called Mountain Equipment Co-op. And um, I had befriended that photo editor, and he happened to be leaving the job, and I just said, you know, would you recommend me? Because he knew he could see how interested I was in his job, and you know, so he recommended me and I I ended up getting that position. So I I was a photo editor there for maybe four years, I would say. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The fact that all these wonderful images are c are coming across your desk made it a desire for you to get out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I started getting FOMO really bad. I mean, I I you know, at first it was exciting. I I was learning, you know, I was learning new things and and um, you know, seeing all these amazing photos from all these people's adventures. But then after I would say a couple years where I kind of wasn't learning much of the job, new elements of the job anymore, I just was like, why am I sitting in my office when I could be out there, you know, having all these great adventures and and and taking photos? And that just sounded way more exciting to me. I was just, I just felt like I was kind of my life was just passing me by. And I could just, I think in my mind, I was like, oh my God, I can just see 10 years just flying by here and nothing really changing, you know, and I that scared the shit out of me. It really, I'm sorry to swear on your podcast, but it really did. It's like a you know, I think one of my worst fears in life is like squandering my life, you know.
SPEAKER_01I I I can see that in your work. So, okay, that that may answer the question then, because again, so you you're in the States, you're having this conversation with this guy who's sailing in the South Pacific. He says, Do you want to come join the crew? You at as far as I know at this point, you don't know the difference between a Genoa and a rudder. But but you say, sure, I'll go to the South Pacific and get on a boat. I mean, tell me first of all, I mean, tell me that story, but then tell me why.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I just have to preface this with one other quick um thing that I would say played a pretty big role. But uh after living in Vancouver, I I started dating this guy who was a paraglider and a bush pilot in Alaska. He convinced me to quit, helped to convince me to quit my photo editor job. And then on my last day of work, my very last day, so I'd given up my apartment and I had given my notice to the job, and I didn't know what I was gonna do next, but I knew I just needed to quit to make a change. Um because it was too comfortable for me. Anyway, on my last day of work, uh two hours before the end of the day, I got a phone call that he had died that morning in a paragliding accident.
SPEAKER_02Oh my.
SPEAKER_03So uh, and my, you know, my world flipped upside down, and I was in the middle of flipping my world upside down, literally. So it was a weird combination of things. But it was also one of I I still to this day think it was one of the greatest gifts ever because it I had never been through a death before, and it had really, I think the following months really ignited that fire under me to really, really not squander my time on the planet. And it was the fuel, it really, I just thought, you know what, every day, I don't care what I'm doing. I just want to do something that, you know, really makes me happy. And, you know, um, so anyway, and then after many months after that experience, I did. I got an offer to go to the South Pacific and start sailing. And yes, I knew absolutely nothing about sailing, but I just thought, you know what, I gotta take this opportunity because you don't get this opportunity every day, you know? And I just thought, I'll go and I'll try it out. And yeah, if I don't like it, I'll just come back and keep doing whatever I'm doing at the time, you know, or something new, you know.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And and you wound up, you know, over what was it, 10 years sailing around the world twice? I did, yes.
SPEAKER_03So that turned into 10 years. Um, I started a business that did five-year remote kite boarding expeditions. So it was a little bit, it's not, it wasn't charters. It worked like a golf membership, but for kite boarders is how I kind of the easiest way for me to describe it.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03And it would give um clients or members uh a cabin for ten days every year for five years, because it would take us five years to circumnavigate. And we we specialized in remote locations in the planet.
SPEAKER_01I I don't know if you remember a National Geographic story. This would have been back when I was in high school, so we're talking the early 70s. Um, but a guy named Robin Lee Graham was the first, he sailed around the world solo. Took him five years to do it. He wasn't one of these, you know, I'm never gonna stop people. But it it was to visit cultures. It was to visit uh the places that he was uh calling into port, and that was one of those things that grabbed me when I was 16 uh and said, you know, this is what your life should be. Your sailing experience, though, was not all pretty sunsets and Chardonnay. I mean, you you you you tell a story on a TED talk about a storm, um, about uh and I want to hear that story again, but you make a couple claims. You say adversity is always worth it, and hardship is necessary for your sense of meaning. Okay. Yes. Tell me the story of that storm, but also why is adversity always worth it, and why is hardship necessary for you?
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, let's start with the storm. I I'll kind of sum it up because it can go on for a while, because it felt like it it was a five-year storm. Um but no, I I had um when I first started, I flew to New Zealand and the boat was on the hard, and we were actually doing charters in the beginning, and I didn't know anything about sailing. And then we were working on that monohol, that sailboat, and we needed to sail to Fiji with some charter clients. That was my first passage, that 10-day passage from New Zealand to Fiji. And it was very challenging. The weather was okay, it was fine, but I I was seasick and the clients were fairly difficult. And one the one the one of the ladies was schizophrenic, and so that was weird when you're you know, you're in the middle of the ocean and you're you know, weird things happen. Anyway, so we get to Fiji, and then we need to get to Vanuatu to pick up a new set of clients. And this just happened to be happening underneath the interconvergence zone, which is a tropical convergence zone that happens. It's a weather pattern that um just constantly fluctuates north and south, and it's always there. And it's just this band of super shitty weather, like just really like torrential rain, you know, horrible winds. And we were on a deadline because we had to pick up these clients that were flying in um to Vanuatu. And it just so happened that the we were underneath the convergence zone beating. We had to because there was a big storm under this convergence zone. So beating means going into the wind, going against the wind, yes, directly against the wind. And but we were on a timeline, and so we started out and the weather just kept getting worse and worse and worse, and then the captain uh became delusional. And I I mean, I think everything that a lot almost almost everything that can go go wrong went wrong on this passage. And so when you're beating and going into the wind, it's just it's just relentless pounding. You can like if you can kind of envision if you were going directly into the wind, that the boat would just be, you know, rearing up and slamming down. You know a little bit about sailing, so or maybe you know a lot. I don't know. Um, but anyway, so it literally feels like the boat starts falling apart because it is just getting a pounding. So this is we there were three of us on board, uh, a first mate who was this young kid that we'd picked up in um in Fiji. He spoke like eight languages. He was a really cool kid, but he was like 18, didn't have much experience, and he was learning sailing as well. He didn't know anything. Anyway, and then so, and then there was me and the captain, and we were just beating in the boat. It we were on, we just had to alternate watches, and then the torrential rains were coming, and then you know, I remember being on on watch and standing in in the cockpit in about four feet of water, like not non-stop. And then rogue waves would hit us, and we were clipped in when we were on watch. And of course, the other two people who aren't on watch are always trying to sleep, but they can't because we're pounding, you know, so nobody's nobody's really getting any sleep. And then every time you kind of open the hatch to yell at somebody or to switch, you know, water would pour into the the galley. And uh, and you know, you're you after four hours of being on watch standing in four four feet of water and getting pummeled by the odd rogue waves that were coming through, uh, you were just like you were pruned and beat up, and and so this went on for days. And then I remember one time, like I think probably day three or four, I was trying to sleep. And of course, none of us ate for there's no way you could eat during this whole 10 days. But um after day three or four, the captain, I remember he he sits up in his berth and he's like, Jody, Jody, where are we? Show me on the map. And I was like, What? You know, and so I actually thought he contracted malaria in Fiji. Oh and I thought he was dil, well, he was delusional. So then I was like, it like a logical conclusion was that it was malaria. And I was like, oh my God, we are not even halfway through this passage. And the captain is delusional, and I don't really know much about sailing at this point. You know, I'd only done uh another 10-day passage, and and Francis, who was the first mate, who he didn't know anything, and I was like, oh my God. And we here we are in this, you know, just horrible weather. And of course, when you're beating, you're also the boat, like I said, feels like it's falling apart because it is actually falling apart, and the damage is constant and incessant. And I I remember just thinking, okay, well, maybe it's better to. Sail this thing into a reef and try to get rescued, you know?
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03Um, because it's just it's it's you're in such a bad scenario that you're just trying to figure out how you can get out of it.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_03And it's almost it's it's an impossible thing to kind of figure out because you can't just sail towards better weather. Like that's days away, you know? Right. And you've got all these problems with the boat that's happening and the rogue waves, and then you know, is is it would knock out our our all the all the stanchion posts along the side of the boat, and then you've got you know, all this something's always happening. And um yeah, and so you're just like, how do I end it? You know, like you were not eating, we're not sleeping, I'm seasick. Um, it's just like you're you're kind of like in living hell, basically, you know, and then um and then uh so this goes on obviously for days, and then the the the captain comes out of his he's not delusional anymore. So I was like, wow, well that's promising, that's something. You know, we're barely hanging on, and I I just remember um which I I talk about in the uh TED talk, but I was laying on the floor in in the main salon because you there's not even a point of lying in the berth, everything's soaked inside, right? You know, nothing's dry. There's no point in wearing any clothes, actually, because they just then they're wet, uh usually cotton, you know, which kind of makes it worse. And he opens the he opens the the the hatch from the cockpit and he goes, I need a pair of vice grips and a wrench, like right now, or the mast is coming down. And we got hit by this huge rogue wave. And I remember crawling, because I was already on the floor, and I remember crawling into where the first mate was sleeping, and we had all our tools underneath the floorboards there. And um I crawled in and I remember saying, like, Francis, Francis, uh, Gavin, you know, Gavin needs the vice grips right now, or he says the mast is coming down. And I I go to open the floorboard to get the tools, and then our cabinet bangs open, and all this you know, paint thinner and paint comes piling out and spill everywhere. And then so Francis and I are like vomiting, dry heaving, all this stuff's going on. You know, we're still getting pounded, you know. The boat, I mean, the whole passage, the boat like that never eased up. Right. Um, and so you, you know, you really are in your living hell, and and there's no there's no reprieve from from it. You know, I always think like when you're when you're sick in general and you don't feel good, there's usually something you can do, or like take medicine or change your body position, or something that can kind of alleviate some of the pain you're in. But when you're you know sailing in the middle of the passage, there's no way to quickly relieve the situation. So it was, I mean, just as bad as I I don't know, I think you can imagine.
SPEAKER_01But okay, but what you the the part of the quote that that I'm still waiting for, you say it's necessary for your search for meaning. Um what about that kind of being intensely aware, intensely alive is is sort of core for you in self-awareness?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so what the what's so what I'm kind of so this was the the beginning of my sailing, my decade at sea. And I think it was I was already doing adventurous stuff outdoors, but I've had a long career of it. And um, you know, looking back on my career of having all this hardship and adversity, it's what I seek out in my life now because it has given me all my self-growth as a human. And it's, I mean, it's just the it's just the greatest gift in my perspective. Um, it's where I learn the most, it's where I grow the most, it's it's where my life really feels has the most meaning because of that learning and growth that I'm having through those experiences.
SPEAKER_01You you you describe yourself as an adventure and documentary photographer. You don't say landscape, you don't say wildlife. Um I mean, travel does show up in a couple of your portfolios as a term, but adventure and document. What does it mean to be an adventure photographer?
SPEAKER_03Well, I I mean I I photograph a lot of in my career, I've photographed a lot of just strictly adventure when I was um developing my photography skills while I was sailing. It was it started out with kiteboarding, surfing, paragliding. So though, you know, that and the sailing combined with the sailing component. So that's that's the adventure. And then I I I've progressed onto there into other sports and stuff, but I think I think uh because of my love of outdoor adventure uh since when I was young and into college, that's always been a core theme in my photography. And then I would say there was a point through sailing and through my photography career that I kind of evolved from that. And I started thinking, you know, I don't think just adventure is enough. I want to tell more stories, that stories that have more depth to them, and um that to me were more meaningful, you know. And I was always in these places where I was meeting the locals and in these incredible places, meeting these incredible people and coming upon these stories. And I was just um, I was like, wow, this is so much more interesting to me than just the adventure component. And so I would say my photography has evolved. My preference is always having and some form of element of adventure in there to make me feel alive.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Well, I I noticed you used to use the term adventure sport photographer. Yeah. Um, and then the word sport disappears from that. Yeah. Uh tell tell me about I mean, is it because a lot of your work, you know, became a little bit more introspective, a little bit more, you know, your own story? You're still doing stories of other people all the time, but that this other element was growing. What why did you drop that term?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because I think the word sport, um, I at least in my mind, is more conventional sports. And and you know, in terms of, you know, like football and soccer, and and and I never shoot that stuff. And I don't really have a desire to. Yeah, that's just not my thing. I'm always um I I think exploration and adventure is the heart of me and how I move through the world. And so it's not the traditional sport. Um, and I think I think the majority of people when they heard when they hear the term sport, they think, oh, okay, do you shoot basketball and do you shoot baseball? And yeah, you know, stuff like that. And I I think it just uh makes it more confusing, you know.
SPEAKER_01Fast forward again, you know, and again, we're gonna get to one of your most famous photographs here. But one afternoon you say, hey kids, let's go to see a movie, and you go see a movie called The Fall, which winds up changing your life.
SPEAKER_03Well, we watched it on a passage. Um, yeah, on the boat, because uh we watched a lot of movies on the boat. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, well, well, again, and yeah, obviously I haven't said what photograph yet. So I'll let you lead into that. Ton tell me what happened here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, on the boat, you end up reading a lot of books and watching a lot of movies, and and on uh one of the movies we we saw was it was Hollywood movie. It's it's I would say more of a cult classic. It's not a mainstream, um, but it's called The Fall, and is it's created uh by this director called Temsem, and he's very visually uh well, uh cinematic, like it, but but visually interesting, different um scenes in it anyway. So in the fall, uh I was watching it on board, and there's this scene where these guys are in tropical blue water and they they're on an island and they need to get to the next island, and they get on this elephant, and they're one guy's they're swimming across between these islands in this tropical, just incredible blue water, and one of the guys is sitting on the elephant while the elephant's swimming across. And it's just this beautiful scene of you know, this underwater of this elephant kicking his legs and going just through it, looks like swimming in a swimming pool, you know, the water's so blue. And I remember I remember watching that, and I would, I just was like, wow, is this, you know, is this real or is this like a Hollywood studio? Because I started thinking about where in the world where do you ever see an elephant swimming in tropical blue ocean water? You know, I just couldn't. I had seen enough of the world at that point in my life that I was like, there there's nowhere I can think of that that could actually take place, you know?
SPEAKER_01The boat had not yet hit an elephant. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, it's just like you start thinking about it and you're like, well, yeah, I don't see elephants near the ocean, you know? Where would that happen? Um anyway, so then I was like, oh, this has to be like a Hollywood set. But then I just I don't know why. There was something really uh that like something about that scene that it struck me. And so I thought the next uh when we get to the next port, I'm gonna go to the internet and I'm gonna Google it and see if, you know, try to research it and see if this like situation really exists anywhere. Uh so I got to port and uh Googled it, and I found out that this elephant actually really did exist and lived on an island off the coast of India, and that this scene was filmed in the Andaman Islands, and it just so happened to be that we were gonna be sailing there in the next four or five months.
SPEAKER_01So the the elephant in the movie is Roshan? Yep.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Well, what now? Okay, so you you get there and you say, I am going to go find this. First of all, just the logistics, you know, contact it. How do you find an elephant?
SPEAKER_03I was like, I'm gonna get off the boat and I'm gonna try to find the this elephant. So when we sailed into Port Blair, which is the very southern tip of India, I just got off and I I had seen online that he was on this one island in the Andamans. So I just was like, okay, I'm gonna get a ferry and I'm gonna go to that island. And and so that's what I did. And then I just started asking around. And as soon as you just start asking around, it just led me right to him. And then yeah.
SPEAKER_01So Okay, so so you you find it now you've got several different settings of of images of this guy. Um, but for I mean, now put on your photographer's hat. What how do you go about saying I want the elephant to swim? or and you go why the whole photo shoot-ness of it strikes me as a real challenge.
SPEAKER_03I didn't know anything about Rajan other than you know, just seeing him on in the movie. Um, I didn't know his story, I didn't know anything about him, and I was just like, I just let's just find out, you know, and so when I found out where Rajan was, a resort had bought him from a temple, and they had been taking care of him in the jungle behind their resort. And so then when I met him, then they were telling me his story, which was incredible that he was one of these this group of ten elephants that were brought to the andamans to help uh log the elephants. And um, because the andamans have these incredible huge trees in the jungle, and they needed a way to get the cut trees out to the barges that were anchored off the islands, and they didn't have a way to do that. So they trained these elephants, this group of ten, that they, you know, put on these big ships initially to get to this island from the mainland, and um trained them to swim, like learn to like to swim in saltwater because elephants love fresh water, but you know, they not want saltwater. And they kind of forced them to learn to swim in the saltwater so that they could they would, you know, grab the the trunks with their trunk and then swim them to these barges, and then they could haul them out of the water and put them on the barges. And then when they were done logging that island, they would get this group of 10 to swim to the next island, which was sometimes miles apart. So just visually thinking of that, it's like wow, that's incredible, you know. Um and then logging became banned in the early 2000s, and then this group of 10 elephants was literally out of a job. And but then and then of course there was no money involved, so then the elephants were some people, some temples bought them on the mainland, and then there was a story about one of the other elephants just swimming and like going rogue, um, then ended up dying on another island. Anyway, so they all got dispersed, and they had all passed except for Rajan. He was the last one of this group to survive.
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SPEAKER_01The two really famous ones here. There's the one where he's swimming, and then there's the morning walk one as well. So tell me just the story of the shoot for morning walk first.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so uh so after I had I had learned about Rajan's story, I was like, wow, this is an incredible story. Like I just fell in love with the story, and he had a mahoot, which is an Indian term for um elephant caretaker. And they have this incredible bond. It's it's it was literally like you know, witnessing, I always say mother and child or father and child, but they're you know, Rajan was always with his name was Najru, and they had been together for like 30 years, and uh Rajan wouldn't go anywhere without Najru. And I just I just fell in love with the the bond and the relationship between human and elephant and animal, you know, it was just how strong it was, how profound it was. And I I didn't have a timeline here, so I was like, oh, I'm just gonna start documenting and spending time with Rajan and Najru, like seeing what their daily routine looked like and you know, finding out like, does Rajan really like to swim in the water and does he just swim on his own and like all this stuff, you know? So I ended up spending two weeks there just following them around.
SPEAKER_01And Did you have an aesthetic call? I mean, was there a shot you were waiting for, or were you just saying, I'm going to absorb everything and see what rises?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think um you know, when you're spending when I was spending a lot of time, I would get up very early in the mornings, uh, four o'clock in the morning, um, to start my day with them. And I remember for that, for that morning walk photo, I remember the trees are incredible. And if you see this picture, you will understand what I mean. But like I remember walking through the the forest on a couple of the mornings and just looking how the light came through the trees, and then I thought, oh my God, one of these mornings I know Rajan will walk through there, and I'm gonna, I'm like, wow, what a shot that will be. Because it gives Rajan scale, it gives the trees scale, um, and then the light was so incredible. So then I had the shot in my head, and I waited for that moment to happen. And I remember that morning I asked Najru, I mean, he couldn't really speak English, but we we learned to kind of, you know, sign language talk. But he would like, I asked him, Are you going on that trail? You know, that trail with uh Rajan, and he was like, Yeah, he pointed that direction. So I was like, Oh my god, they're gonna go there. So like I ran way ahead, and I I put myself in the position where I I knew he was gonna, Rajan was gonna walk through on that trail. And so I just had the shot in my head.
SPEAKER_01You you you chose a small elephant with big trees. Yeah. Instead of, you know, okay, so it be you you did pre-visualize the composition based on what you'd already learned.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I just thought, wow, how is how how cool like this this image kind of sums up his story? Like these are the trees he once used to log, you know, like in in this location. So it kind of, you know, now that he was retired and free living among them, I just thought, wow, what a cool this this photo is gonna sum up his story.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then the one that that really gets out everywhere is the swimming photo. So tell me the story of that one.
SPEAKER_03I never wanted to, you know, make Rajan do anything that he wasn't naturally doing. You know, I I I wanted that shot because it was the shot I saw from the movie, you know. I was like, wow, if he swims in tropical blue water, I want to capture that, you know, like you don't see that everywhere, that's for sure. And so just after spending time with him and Najru, I, you know, I had asked, does how often does Rajan go in and swim in the ocean? And does he even like it? You know, I didn't even know uh since they were forced to learn to swim in the ocean, like does he go if he doesn't have to, you know? Um they had learned to, you know, adapt to swimming and getting used to the salt water. So when he was, you know, when he felt like going in the water, he would he would go for a swim. And you never really knew like how long he would swim for, how deep he would swim. Um, it was just totally what he felt like doing. And so I always had my housing ready with with me and uh my underwater housing so that uh if you know he decided to go swimming, I could quickly put him dive in with him and just go swimming with him. And so I I swam with him three times, I would say. Oh yeah. Over over my time with him, and every time was different, you know. Sometimes, sometimes he would just walk in and like stand, you know, uh basically knee deep and like decide whether he was going in, you know, like am I gonna go? Am I not gonna go? And it was always like, I don't know. And then, you know, sometimes he would just go for a full swim, which was incredible, you know.
SPEAKER_01Um you know, your work at this point, you know, it it's in magazines, it's in sport magazines, that kind of stuff. But you get these pictures of a swimming elephant, and God decides what the islands really need as a producer from the BBC. Um the coincidence there is just not fair, Jody, just so you know that.
SPEAKER_03Um but but that's how the world works, you know? It is when it is when you're out in the world, crazy stuff happens.
SPEAKER_01But okay, so tell me how the image went from damn I got it to the whole world is saying, my lord, look at this image.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, I don't I don't actually think I've ever said in my life, damn I got the photo. I'm just sorry. I'm just I'm just saying. Um no, I mean like I had I had uh I was in the middle of just spending I spending time with Naju and Rajan and documenting uh everything I could and I just was enjoying the process so much. You know, I just I loved witnessing the relationship. I love just being there. I love just you know, it's just so amazing to me to be around really intelligent animals, whether in any way, shape, or form. And so elephants are. Really incredible to be around. And um I, you know, I just was loving the whole process. And one of the nights that I was on the island, I went to dinner somewhere. And yeah, I just started talking to this foreigner lady that was, you know, sitting in in the restaurant. And we just started chatting, you know, hey, where are you from? And, you know, and then she we just started talking. She was like, Yeah, well, I work for the BBC and I'm here working on another story. And I was, and she said, What are you doing? And I said, Well, I'm actually documenting, you know, this this elephant, and he's got this incredible backstory, and I'm just, you know, loving it. It's just so interesting. And um, she loved the story and then was like, Wow, okay, well, let's uh, you know, when you're done, can you send me pictures? And and then so that's kind of how that happened. And then the BBC ran it and ran the photos, and yeah, they they went viral.
SPEAKER_01A little bit different than posting on Facebook and hoping for 20 likes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that was at a different time, you know. Yeah, it was before Instagram and stuff. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01You you you have, you know, you know, obviously, you know, but most people know this picture, but so many other really iconic um trips. So one that I want to talk about because it's on my bucket list, uh, and this is the iron ore train um in this the Sahara. Yeah. I want to do that. I I want to get I want to ride that thing. I want to ride it all the way across. Um, but tell me, you were actually trying to get to the coast. So was the was the train not actually part of your planning? Or tell me this.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it was. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_03One of the things about sailing is we had a lot of pro athletes, like uh kiteboarders and surfers on board our boat. And I had one kite boarder who grew up in Africa. Uh, he was a professional kite boarder, and he really liked kite boarding in remote locations. And he got on the boat and he said, Oh, I just went through, I was just kiteboarding in Mauritania, and I just he actually documented it with a video that he had. And he said, I got on this, I hopped on this iron ore train with my kite boarding gear and I rode it to the coast. And so he showed me this video uh on the boat, and I was like, Oh my god, I want to do that. Like, I, you know, it just really nagged at my adventure uh bone in my body, and I was like, I want to do that, and so I had it in my head, always in the back of my head. Okay, that's on my bucket list.
SPEAKER_04Like, yep.
SPEAKER_03And I liked the fact that, you know, I hadn't seen anybody doing it anywhere. It was just him, like he had figured out how to do it, and I was like, oh, that's so cool. And then Aleika had approached me and they said, Hey, we're coming out with this all-weather camera, our first all-weather camera, and we want you to take it on a really good adventure where it's gonna test the elements. And I thought, well, I know I have a really good adventure that I want to take it on. But Mauritania, uh, at at the time, and I believe still is a red, a red zone country. So it they tell tourists not to travel there. So then I then I thought, you know, I really want to go, but I'm not sure Leica's gonna let me go because of it being a high-risk location.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_03Anyway, they I didn't say anything about that, and they never said anything about that. So then I was like, oh, okay, great. So what I did was I called the US Embassy in Nawadibu, which is the capital of Mauritania, and I I talked to the people at the embassy and I said, So, hey, you know, I'm interested in in traveling to Mauritania. You know, how dangerous is it for me to be traveling there, you know, like realistically, and the and anyway, the guy at the embassy, he was like, you know, there's uh definitely areas you should not go into on the and and specifically he was saying on the east side along the Mali border, and um he then he just said, but on the west side, he said I'd be more scared in New York City, and and I was like, great, because I don't need to go on the east side along the Mali border, you know, I just need to go along the west coast. And I knew from growing up in the Middle East and Saudi that perception is always, you know, what the news and media portray is always a completely different story than reality. So I felt very comfortable um with um, you know, listening to his advice. And so I was like, great. And I was like, I'm gonna take this camera on at an adventure. And um yeah, and because there's not a lot of roads or infrastructure in Mauritania, it's actually, you know, it's quite hard to get around. So once you kind of go into the interior, you can't just like take any road to get to the coast. And it's the Sahara Desert in between. And so the you get on the train in the in the interior, and if you want to cut through the Sahara, this train allows you to do that.
SPEAKER_01And and for people that don't know, we're not talking about Pullman coaches here and and a dining car. Yeah. Um, we're talking open containers filled with iron ore.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Really dirty um iron ore.
SPEAKER_01And intensely cold at night, intensely hot during the day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, that was like two down jackets at night, which was kind of unbelievable of how cold it was. And then, yeah, you can imagine like 100-degree desert Sahara weather in the daytime.
SPEAKER_01Let me ask you a real small question, because the print of this that you're selling, you have the leading line of the rail of the train and the rails absolutely perpendicular to the frame. And yet you've got other versions where it's a little bit more of a diagonal. And I was just curious, do you prefer one over the other? Is one simply more popular than the other? When you're looking at your monitor and you're saying these are the images that I'm working up now, how do you, not only for that picture, but for any of them, how do you define merit for yourself?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I think it's complicated. I mean, it's always a combination of elements that need to come together compositionally, balance color. Um, I think the big challenge I had with that shoot in particular was that that camera had a fixed lens, a 35 millimeter lens. And I always say that that assignment made me be a better photographer because of that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because I think when you force, when you're forced to only shoot with a fixed lens, uh, I mean, you have to think a lot more, you have to move a lot more. You know, you have a photo in your mind and you can't just change the lens to make it work, you know? And in the challenge I had with that shoot, I mean, not only dealing with that, but you know, here I am on one of the longest trains in the world. It's it's kilometers long. And so I think diagonally allowed me, I was always thinking, like, how can I capture again? I'm always trying to think of the overall story, but like, you know, the train is such a, you know, in a stark landscape, the train is such a huge component of the story, and it's one of the longest. So it's like, you know, how can I portray, help to portray the length of the train? I, you know, that was always going on in my mind, and I was always, you know, trying with with that fixed, the limitation of that fixed lens, like, how can I do that when I'm stuck in a box car? You know, like I can't just run down the train, um, you know, either way to make the photo work. Um, and so yeah, I think I think it's tricky. It depends on many different elements when I'm editing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When you're out these days, and you know, and I'm not talking the early days, I mean these days. Um, it's is the camera driving your attention or the experience?
SPEAKER_03A hundred percent the experience. Okay.
SPEAKER_01And and so I'll grab the camera if I can.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I always try to have you know the camera with me nearby. Like right, you know, the last couple years I've been solo motorcycling, so I'm always uh I've always got kind of a few cameras going, but yeah, the experience 100% drives me.
SPEAKER_01You know, I just got back from Nepal myself, and and I was, you know, the camera was always in my hand to just to be ready. Um, but it didn't drive where my foot, you know, my feet were falling. So it it's an interesting way of saying how how am I organizing the merit of my day. Tell me about motorcycling uh in the Himalayas.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, uh talk about another thing on my bucket list. It's it's um it's been on my, it had been on my bucket list for a really long time. And then I think uh during COVID, I also had a health scare during that time. I they found a five-inch tumor in my abdomen. I was told I had one to four years to live. And then after surgery, they said, Oh, it's well, first of all, they said, we don't know what it is, we have to send it to Harvard to get analyzed. And then um, and then they were like, wow, it's benign. Uh, you're one of eight people to grow this tumor and you're you're fine, you're totally good to go. Um so then, yeah, so then that happened. And I just during the combination of, you know, that um that health scare and COVID, I was just like, you know, I I just want to cross off as many bucket list things as I can. And I just said, you know, screw it, I'm gonna start motorcycling in the Himalayas. And that's what I started doing.
SPEAKER_01Have you had personal safety scares with all your adventures? And I'm not talking like, you know, breaking a leg because you fell down a uh a hill. Um, just the travels themselves.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I wouldn't say so much the travels. Yeah, yes, a hundred percent. Um we had um uh great white shark attack, death on the boat, uh paragliding, I've been sucked into the clouds, uh motorcycling. I mean, I I kind of feel like motorcycling, I'm probably have 10 close calls a day, you know. Um yeah, I mean, yeah, but I'm used to it. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And like I said, it's part of that adversity component that I quite like.
SPEAKER_01My friend Mark Jenkins makes a nice distinction between a real risk and perceived risk, which is a ratio. You know, if you've never been on a roller coaster before, you know, your perceived risk is huge, but your real risk uh is not. Yeah. With experience, you know, though those things can change. But you you have made the point that you are not a big planner. Um, that you you're basically I'm gonna head that way. Um has that worked out? I mean, clearly it has, but I mean, just you know, in terms of uh personal anxiety and everything else.
SPEAKER_03I think it's always worked out, and I think over my lifetime I've it a life has taught me to plan less and less. And I think um sailing probably probably started it for me. Um, it was always so interesting to have clients come on board, and you know, they were so used to planning their day-to-day lives, and they would be like, where are we, where are we anchoring tonight? And where are we gonna be tomorrow? And where is this, what's gonna happen exactly like this? And we would just have to say, you know, well, we don't know. It depends on the weather, it depends on the conditions, it depends on, you know, so many different factors that the planning was useless, you know, it really, really was. And then so I think planning, uh sailing kind of ingrained in me that the planning was a complete waste of time. And then on top of that, you learned how much magic there was in life by not planning, by being open to this serendipity of life. And so that combination for me is pure magic.
SPEAKER_01And and there is a substantial difference between planning and preparation.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, I mean, you had your underwater housing with you.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01You did not plan to go swimming, but you were prepared for it.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um you you tell a story somewhere about um a woman in a dugout who said, You want to go see my island? And yep, away we go. Yes. Um without planning, but you were prepared. Um and so many, I mean, I I'm going through your portfolios here. And gang, you've all got to go look uh at Jody's work because every image is like I said at the beginning, it's just inspiring. Everything from whales swimming to rural India to um jumping out of an airplane. Um it is all right there. Um Jody, what are you working on now?
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm I'm working on a YouTube series of me traveling around on the motorcycle. And so that's been really fun, and we're in the middle of editing that. And I'm also working on conservation work in Nepal. That also has me pretty busy. So the combination, and then and then while I'm doing those things, I'm also just trying to explore more with the motorcycle, and um, I always um am finding really interesting stuff while I'm doing that. So it's kind of a combination, and then I'm also working on two books. So, you know, trying trying to fit it all in while I can.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you you are not someone who has a free afternoon. Well, well, again, and and and we I do want to um make special mention that your work is going to a lot of good causes. The conservation work, um, vital impacts of cell in a prime just there are a lot of places that your work is making the world a better place.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you. But a big shout out to Amy Vitali for connecting us.
SPEAKER_01Jody, thank you very much. I've enjoyed this conversation. I'm a fan, um, and it's gonna be your fault if I find myself on that cold train, and I will send you a thank you.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that would be great. Please do that. I would love it if you went and did that. You have to.
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