FRAMES Photography Podcast
FRAMES Photography Podcast
Giulio D'Ercole
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In today's episode, W. Scott Olsen speaks with Giulio d'Ercole, an Italian photographer, documentary filmmaker, and educator whose human-centered work explores social realities, landscapes, and the deeper relationship between people and the world around them.
You can Giulio's Rome Photo Fun Tours website here.
Find out more and join FRAMES here.
You reduce the distance by getting closer and closer to one another. You know, the photographer with the subject and the subject with a photographer. And at that point is when you find an empathy with your subject, you find yourself into your subject. And as a matter of fact, eventually what you're photographing is not just something external. We always project what in what we photograph, something of ourself.
SPEAKER_00This photography podcast is brought to you by Frames, a quarterly printed photography magazine. Here is today's host, W. Scott Olson, with another fascinating conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to another podcast from Frames Magazine. My name is Scott Olson, and oh my heavens, folks, we are gonna have fun today. You know, there is the cliche out in the world. You know, you're gonna go talk to somebody who's well known, somebody who's really present, and you say, Oh, this person needs no introduction. You know, because everybody knows this person and knows this person's work. And every time I hear that, I always sort of grimace because yes, the person needs an introduction to celebrate who they are. In other words, we're talking with Julio Di Ercole, I can't even say his last name right, D'Ercole. Um, who, and if you've got any connection to the frames uh universe, you know Julio. He's been at the live events, he's been in the everywhere. He's got stories, he's got images that just knock your socks off. And he he's one of these guys that's just out there celebrating being a photographer, and his career has taken a tremendous arc. Um starting off with being you know in theater, moving to be a script writer. We're gonna get to all that in a second. Um, but right now, and this is especially why I want to talk, right now, he's in the midst of this huge new series called Interpreting Landscapes Another Italy. Just had a fantastic exhibition of part of it over in in uh Toady. Uh he's approaching landscape photography in a way that is fresh, always seems impossible to do, right? Um but he's approaching landscape photography in a way that's fresh, based on a life experience, based on a history that is just the stuff that movies are made out of. Born in Rome, raised in Rome, lived in Germany, Los Angeles, New York, Nairobi, and in Kenya. He started his career in theater, went on to be a script writer, then became a producer. Um, and that's something we're gonna get to this in a second. Something about being a producer led him into photography, which then went out and grabbed his soul a little bit. His work's been exhibited at the Italian and the French Institutes of Culture, the American Embassy, National Museum in Nairobi, uh, Kenya, Nigeria, in Venice. It's been published by the New York Times lens section. You know, just you just start going on and on. This guy's work is fantastic. In 2018, he founded Rome Photo Fun Tours. He's a he's got a teacher hiding somewhere in his soul there. A few years after that, he founded Italy Photo Fun Tours. And if you look them up online, there's all these testimonials of people that have gone on these tours and had their lives transformed. So I am really looking forward to talking to one of the main voices in the Frames universe, to somebody who's doing landscape photography that really just grabs your heart. And someone over the years I've come to consider uh as a real colleague and friend in uh the world of photography. Julia, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_02Hello, Scott. Thank you for so much for having me. I'm doing quite, quite fine, unless the uh, I mean, if we're not talking about the heat that is uh uh heating uh uh and heating up Europe nowadays. Um and uh besides that, I'm quite, quite fine. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01You know, as we are recording this, Europe is under a heat dome. I mean, everybody, I think Paris had you know record high temperatures, Italy, record high temperatures. Um it and air conditioning, you know, because this is so rare, is not all that common uh in some places. So it's really tough to be over there these days.
SPEAKER_02Well, consider that I live in the historic center of Toddy, which is a hilltop beautiful village in Umbria, the same region of Assisi. And uh and here you cannot put ACs because you know it's uh it's to preserve the uh the aesthetic of the historic center. So I'm now talking to you. It's 36 uh Celsius, and uh I'm in the room with no AC. So you can imagine.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well we're gonna start calling the Frames Podcast series a weight loss program. Uh since people sweat out uh all their energy talking. Julia, I I really want to get to the interpreting landscapes and and all those ideas first. But you got a you got a couple of things in your history um that I want to talk about. Uh as I said, you know, you started in theater, you moved into script writing, that seems natural. You know, script writing, well then you became a TV producer. Um and and you know, producer is not director, it's not cinematographer, it's not DP. But you know, and you were doing some really cool projects, but you said, you know, that that producing documentaries is why you got more and more involved with photography. So tell me about the documentaries you were doing, um, you know, what they were about, what your role was, but why did the camera come more and more into your hand doing that?
SPEAKER_02Right. Okay. Basically, I my my my job in television started in 1988, 1989 in Italy, and I was just a regular producer for TV shows. Then I moved to New York, and when I worked, and I was when I was in New York, I was hired by Rai, which is the Italian state-owned television, which had a huge office there, that would produce anything and everything that would be broadcast in Italy and internationally by Italian TV. And I was mainly into documentaries because I started uh cooperating a lot with a journalist that um was the author of uh historic documentaries. So my very first documentaries was called documentary, was called I Remember Italy, which was kind of funny because I just arrived in New York and they already told me that I should feel blue for Italy, which was not what I wanted. I actually ran away from Italy because I felt that I was not really growing there. Um because, you know, Hilly, especially one where I'm where I'm from, is a kind of a nice warm hand that keeps his cheeks, you know, under the wings, and he never really developed. So um, but that documentary was beautiful because basically it was the liberation of Italy during the Second World War, told by the veterans of the World War that fought of the of the Allied Army that fought in Italy during the Second World War. And my duty was to locate them, to select the stories and going to interview them. So that's how my career in documentary came about. Um, I interviewed like so many veterans that um both in in the US and in Canada heard amazing stories, and uh and it was just an amazing experience. And then I did other documentaries when I was there on Italian migration uh and obviously on mafia and you know, all these kind of things that were related to Italy somehow, uh, since it was the Italian television. Um, then I moved to Kenya, and in Kenya I worked for two years with UNESCO in Somalia uh on a communication project because that was my background. And then as I was doing that, I founded my own production company and I started doing documentaries for the UN and NGOs on their humanitarian projects. So I traveled extensively in sub-Saharan Africa doing documentaries on, you know, health, gender, uh, you know, in education, you name it, all those themes that were related to the Millennium Development Goals. So I have my camera with me, and as I was shooting documentaries, I started taking photos. And that's basically how I became more and more and more serious about photography. And slowly by slowly I transitioned from moving images to steel images, which is where I am now.
SPEAKER_01When you first started, though, and and you started working on documentaries, was that your choice to go documentary? Or was that an assignment that was given to you and then it just took well uh a bit of both.
SPEAKER_02Like, you know, like uh it was assignments that were given to me, but they found out that I was very good at it. I was very good at interviewing people, I was very good at selecting stories and uh and and yeah, and also my uh also at in at researching uh stuff, you know, like I worked a lot at the National Archives in Maryland. I worked a lot at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. So I mean the results actually were talking for me, and and they showed that that was actually my passion, you know, the human content, the human side of things, you know, going beyond the usual uh first surface that you see.
SPEAKER_01You know, we we should you know give a shout out to your production company, Canvas Africa Productions, um, which did some remarkable work. But you you've got a great quote in another venue. You said going to Africa was, quote, a much needed reality check, you know, um, and perspective on my beliefs and ideas. Right. What about going to Africa? Was it well, first of all, why was the reality check much needed? And and how was it a new perspective for you?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, already moving from Rome to New York was quite of a cultural shock. And then, you know, spending six years in New York, you know, uh, I started getting more and more Americanized, if you like, meaning, you know, like the fact that you have to deliver, you have to be professional, you have to have objectives. And at the end of the day, uh the human side of your life kind of decreases while the importance of who you are, how successful you are, and you know how much you climb the social ladder is important, you know, that you know, slowly by slowly was creeping into me. And and when I arrived in Kenya, and I'm so that actually there are you know, there's a different reality. Not that the life in New York is not real, not that the life in Rome is not real. Every place is on its own reality, and each reality deserves what it has, and uh, it has its own value. But eventually, you know, seeing other cultures, seeing other and experiencing and living other other way of ways of living, uh, was a mind opener, you know, and and so that's that was the reality check I meant.
SPEAKER_01Was the camera just for production stills, or did you see yourself as doing photography?
SPEAKER_02I took my camera with me when I was going for the these documentaries. And when I was doing these documentaries, I was not working as a cameraman, as a cameraman. I was working as a director, as a producer, and as also the director of the editing of the documentary uh after the after the shoeing. But you know, I always brought my steel camera with me. Uh I I started off with my Nikon 4004 and 8008, which were like analog cameras, and then eventually they broke. And so I got my first digital Nikon uh D. I think it was a D70 or a D90, I don't remember. And then I got the D700. Uh so I had it with me, and and and it's impossible not to photograph in in Africa, you know, the colors, the people, uh, the kindness, they, you know, the the old the, you know, and then obviously you also photograph what strikes you, you know, what is different from what you're used to. So it was very, very natural for me to to to go into the uh photography world, you know, more and more and more. I mean, I used to take photos before uh uh as well, but always like more like an hobby. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01I mean, you know, all of us, especially now, cell phones, you know, we take snapshots just for memories. Um, but that's very different than taking images with a kind of artistic intent. Well, should be uh, you know, artistic intent. So you you know, you're sitting there, it's a Tuesday afternoon, and UNICEF just knocks on the door and says, Hey, we want to publish you.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, that's that's what happened. I mean, that's I mean again, I was working for uh UN agency as an NGO, so the people that I knew were you know people working in in these agencies and organizations. So I happened to to know uh a woman that was a communication officer for for UNICEF, and I was showing her work, my work, and and she liked it, and she said, Hmm, I like these shots. Would you would you sell them? Would you allow us to purchase them and publish them in our reports? And and that's actually what uh made me, you know, become more serious because I I always have people saying, Oh, your photos are nice, you know, you, you know, you but I always thought as I I think I said that already in other in other interviews. I mean, I I always thought they were friends and they were just being nice to me. But when eventually somebody that I didn't really, you know, have uh, you know, didn't really know, uh, you know, wanted to put some money in it and publish, I said, maybe it's true that they are nice, maybe it's true that they have a value, and maybe something that I should be more serious about it. And so that's when again I I you know I went more into photography, and then I had the big fortune, the great fortune, having a very good friend that came to Kenya, and we had three trips together. He was uh he is a great photographer, and even though he was not doing any proper teaching to me, I I felt he is kind of my mentor. Like he he he he taught me how to look at things and how to work on my photos and uh and how you know he showed me you know the kind of seriousness you need when you want to when you want to portray something and paying respect to what you are photographing.
SPEAKER_01Okay, let's let's pause on that because you just hit an idea that's all over um you know your own website and and you know that kind of stuff. Um and that is respect and dignity. And I mean, you say you are not out there to show disaster and poverty and famine. Um you you want to show something different. So tell me how you know your own you know kind of personal um worldview influences your because I mean it's possible to do Africa in really cliched ways, to take the picture that everybody else has taken before, or to you know, be sensationalized. How do you approach a subject like that?
SPEAKER_02I I think I think that each one of us can be more open or shut down or close or in the you know, somewhere in the meat, and and and meetway and and that and that you know inferences the the the relationship, the relation you can establish with other people. So I was always very curious, uh, and and everybody knows me here, like for me being the guy that always asks zillion questions. Um and uh and uh and I was I was always very interested in the human aspects of things and the human life. And uh so my approach was to get very, very, very close to the people that I I wanted to photograph, get to know them, get the smiles, and you know, but not I'm not meaning that, you know, to only portray the you know the happy side, but I'm I'm talking about when you smile, you actually opening up, you know, or certain kind of looks, or you know, and um that that's that's what I that's basically what I did. I tried to, you know, I I have a very good friend of mine since those times. He was a medical doctor work uh working for ICRC. And once um we had a slideshow with my photos in his place, with other people, and what he said to his friends that were there was look at the proximity that this guy has with his with his subjects, with the people he photographs. And I think that is one of the things, you know. I mean, you know, it's easy here to to to to quote Robert Kappa, you know, if your photo is not good enough, it's because you were not close enough. And and and uh so that's that's what I think. At the same time, and sorry if I divert a little bit, but I think it's important. At the same time, um, I think that the camera is this amazing tool whereby you are having a screen, you know, you having you have you have a viewfinder, you know, you have something in between you and your subject. So eventually, eventually there is a distance there, right? And and and you should, and and and what a photographer, I think, should do is to use this that distance to uh create a dialogue, you know. Um so so the dialogue, the dialogue is is it's a form of discussion where you where you start from different positions, you know. In in in Greek the is dia logos or logos, and that means you know, between words, and it's the distance between the two words. So it's it's establishing that conversation with your subject that starts from far away, but then eventually the beauty of photography is that it's able to come to terms with that distance and to arrive to a compromise whereby you reduce the distance by getting closer and closer to one another, you know, the photographer with the subject and the subject with the photographer, right? And and at that point is when you find an empathy uh with your subject, you find, you know, you you find yourself into your subjects. And and as a matter of fact, uh eventually what you're photographing is not just something that, you know, something external. You know, we always project in what in what we photograph something of ourself, you know, of ourself. So that's how also the the dialogue, you know, arrive to a compromise. You find the common, you find the common ground, all right? Um so yeah, I don't know if I have answered your question, but you know.
SPEAKER_01No, you you have, but you you've also jumped, you know, way forward in where I was gonna go, because what you're talking about, you've talked about in the video of the reception for your show. Right. Um, and there there's some marvelous ideas here. Um so we'll put the history part on hold a little bit and stay with this notion of dialogue because I mean you ask a really good question. You know, you you say, how do I respond to the thing that is talking to me? And and that struck me because you've also said a number of times, you know, that that you may not be an artist, but you're a respectable craftsman or you're an artisan or something like that. And and I gotta tell you, man, when when you say, how do I respond to the thing that's talking to me, or how do I interpret to put myself in a position of dialogue, that's the artist talking. That that that that that is the vision. Talk to me about why this new project is called interpreting landscapes. Because you've said, you know, you know, Italy is not just the romantic holiday destination. It's not just the holy city, you know, the idealistic. It's really large and complex historically, visually, every other way. What do you mean personally when you say that you are interpreting landscapes?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, um, you know, even here, my question can be quite long. If you allow me some time, I can answer. But you've only got three hours.
SPEAKER_01Um you've only you've only got three hours.
SPEAKER_02All right. All right. Um, you you said in your introduction that I lived in many different places, right? And actually, the very first place where I lived abroad, I mean, you know, from away from Italy was Germany, and I was 24. And that's because I had a German girlfriend at the time. I went to live at her place, and then she then she came to Italy. All right. So I lived in Germany. And uh, the very first time that I went to Germany, I went there by train and I traveled in my vague. There were other uh four or five people there were. Three from uh Calabria and two from Sicily. Uh funny thing is that they were speaking to me, but those were migrants, I mean people that migrated to Germany back in the early 50s, all right? And they were speaking the street dialect of their, I wouldn't even say the region of the town or village, wherever it was, no, whatever it was. Well, they they spoke to me for five some hours until night came because it was an overnight train. And um and I couldn't understand the word because they were speaking the street dialect, all right. I started understanding, you know, what it meant to be a migrant already by that experience, all right? You know, I had always been a luxury migrant, meaning I went wherever I went because I wanted to, not because I was pushed by hunger, war, or because I was persecuted for my religious beliefs or for my political agenda or whatever my political beliefs or my cultural orientation, something like that. I chose to travel. And I was very fortunate about that, right? But still, I always felt, you know, as an Italian, you know, especially back in the days, you know, you would be associated with some stereotypes, all right? Um mandolino, pizza, spaghetti, you know, corruption. And then we had the unfortunate of having Berlusconi environment, so it was, you know, or then Dolce Vita. You know, some good and some and some bad stereotypes, but still stereotypes. And that's the stereotypical vision of Italy, you know, like this beautiful place, and which is true. I mean, Italy is is, you know, objectively very, very beautiful. You know, I'm not saying the country is actually really freaking beautiful, but you know, it's, you know, but then to reduce that to a postcard, you know, it's reducing the debt that Italy has and all what it can, you know, it can communicate or it can give you in terms of feelings, in terms of emotions, and so on and so forth. So the the work that I tried to do with uh with interpreting landscape was to go way you know, way beyond and beyond that that stereotype, you know, not producing necessarily like postcards, but trying to trying to read in what a landscape can actually communicate to you, you know, what you can find into that landscape, you know, and and and and again, I mean, probably the only stereotype that I followed in my in this exhibition, in this collection of 42 photos, well, it's more like you know, going from a more goddamn moody and gloomy kind of landscape in northern Italy, and then slowly by slowly descending towards more uh sunny, pitch sunny, sunny photos, you know, some more um, you know, that that kind of stuff. But uh one thing that if you don't mind, uh, you know, something that I said before, um, which is you always put something of yourself in in what you do, right? Um I mean, is also very true for uh for this exhibition. I mean, you know, it's it's not a coincidence that I chose uh and I shot many photos clean with that gloomy and moody and foggy and mysterious landscapes somehow. Probably not just because they are uh fascinating uh on on their own, but but because most likely, you know, they have they were also, I could see myself in this in this in these landscapes because in the last two years I had some uh serious health issues. I had cancer uh and you know on the my order near the kidney, I had the kidney removed. So uh, you know, it prepared me to see the world also in a different way. And um, and I guess that something of that, you know, came into these photos, you know, like a bit more uncertainty, maybe something, you know, whereby yeah, things are not necessarily that clear, or you know, there is something there probably that comes out of my life experience, you know, and right, right.
SPEAKER_01Which is the dolomite pictures, right? Which we've been able to um that region has attracted photographers for a long time, you know, because of its moodiness. When you when you were there, well just tell me about be because you know, again, you're in a landscape that that you know is not unknown, but is still revealing itself every single day. When you wake up in the morning and you grab the camera, do you know what you're gonna do, or you just go out hunting for something that resonates with your heart and head?
SPEAKER_02Well, nowadays I I'm I go out with my camera more targeting what I want to shoot. If we use the the the category that is used uh for street photography, I'm more fishing than hunting. You know, I mean I I know where to go and and I go there on purpose to take that shot. All right. When I was at the Dolomites, uh on the Dolomites, I I had a number of different locations that I wanted to go and see and photograph. Now, obviously, you know, it's not that you are teletransported to each location instantly, you know, and now you are in point A and then you are in point B. You have a road to drive. And so at that point, you know, photography is also like life. I mean, it's you know, what happens as you're too busy making plans. So, you know, eventually if I see something that I like, I will definitely stop and uh and date the shot, you know. So it's it's a it's a mixture between planning and going with the flow.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Um tell me about one picture in in particular. Uh I had the good fortune to write a reading frames column about this just a short while ago. Um, the yellow building with the mountains appearing in the mist behind it. Um the one that I wrote about, I saw later, was part of several shots, you know, from that moment that you put out on social media. But tell me the story of that one image. Because it's it still is, even though I've looked at it a thousand times now. It still is a knock your socks off image.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm I'm I'm glad it is. Um well, it's like going with the flow. Uh as a matter of fact, yes, that photo was taken at the Misurina Lake, Lago di Misurina, which is right underneath the a very famous and iconic place at the Dolomites, which is the Trecime di Lavaredo, the three peaks of Lavaredo, uh uh a place that is you know being photographed zillion times. And and and um, but that very day, it was very, very, very foggy, and especially on uh at the Trecima. So, I mean, we went there, but we couldn't take any shot. So we decided to go back and uh you know, where the lake is, there is a bar, so we stopped uh there, we ate there, and we were hoping that the thought would disappear, you know, would be blown away or just go, you know, uh in in a little time. But that eventually didn't. So we stayed there and the location was amazing. And uh so we, I say we, because I was with a customer, I was leading a photography workshop. And and and uh so we stopped there and and you know uh uh made the best of what we had there. And what we had there was actually quite quite quite a lot because the lake itself is amazing. Uh you can also go, you know, uh uh in the forest, behind, you know, around it, and takes also some good shots of the forest from inside the forest. And then there was that hotel, and because it was November, it was off season, so it was closed, and behind the hotel there was that mountain. But that mountain, you know, it would appear and disappear because fog and clouds were moving really fast. So it was a matter of, you know, applying patience. That's what I always like to say when I do my courses. Photography is basically teaches you uh two things, uh, the ability to look, to observe, and patience. And I always add that eventually my wife probably would not agree with me that taught me that. But but I think that at least when I'm out to photograph, I'm much more patient than in the house. Um so so I stayed there, you know, it's on the other side of the of the lake, uh, over, you know, looking at the hotel, waiting for the right moment. And the right moment came when the sky opened up a little bit and showed that little uh portion of the mountain behind, and that's when I took the shot. And when I saw that, both in that very moment, but it came up even more later on when I was editing the image, I had in mind very clearly the you know uh shining from the book of Stephen King and the and and more famous probably the the uh Starley Kubrick's movie, you know, because it gave me that feeling of something that is, you know, that you cannot control, that is on top of you, and and you had this hotel at the mountain site, you know, and and this feeling of something incumbent on you, uh something incumbent. And and and and I found it incredibly, incredibly interesting and very uh communicating, you know, communicating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it it it's a beautiful shot. And I gotta tell you, just as an aside, uh I was in a small hotel recently, and because the group had canceled, um, I was the only guest in the hotel. And there were two young girls also that were part of the management of the hotel. And and were both twins? Yeah, no, they were not twins. But every time I'd come around a corner, they'd be sitting there. I I was just waiting for them to go red rum, but they didn't. Um okay, I I want to get at a couple more of your images. Um and and for please forgive my pronunciation here. Um, but Migli Orado, is that right? What? M-I-G-L-I-O-R-A-T-O.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no. That is not, that is definitely not the name of the location. That is something that comes up when you work on the photo with uh with Papa's or with I don't know if it's from Papas. It's me, it means uh enhanced or made better, you know. So it's not a name of a location. You can cut these up.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, no. We need to name a city that now. You know, improved or made better. Well, okay. Then I can't tell you um, because that's all it really says here, but you've got an image. This is a um, you're on some kind of a ridgeline, you're looking out across another ridgeline. There's a small valley, then some rising hills in the background, a lot of pine trees, and some mist moving up um the landscape. Do you have any do you know which one I'm talking about? Uh it's it's 5574, if you if you've got your pictures open.
SPEAKER_025574. Yeah, that was actually that was taken. That was taken uh from uh at the same location, you know, but now if you look at the hotel, would be going more to the right side and looking up towards the right. That is the mountains that are standing, you know, on top of the hotel, okay? On top of that kind of uh but yeah.
SPEAKER_01But you know, but but my my reason for asking though, it there's a there's a similarity in moodiness, but but it's not very similar in terms of composition to the hotel shot.
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, no, it's it's completely different. It's totally different. That the hotel shot is much more symmetric, and this is, I mean, I I really cared about the composition of the second shot you're mentioning. And um, and and I try my very best to capture the different layers, you know, of the different, uh, I don't know how you call it the different rocks of the mountains with the, you know, with the with the with the cypresses uh on on top, you know, not cypresses. These are, I don't know how you call it in English, a betty. Um, well, you know it better. Yeah, and and I must say that, you know, in this in this exhibition, there are uh uh uh three uh major influences uh that I got from the little I know about photography. Uh one would be Ansel Adams, uh, another one would be Franco Fontana, and another one would be Giacomelli. Um now the one that you're talking about is surely Ansel Adams. I mean, that vision of the mountains, even though it's in color, but I felt that's uh it's the way eventually, you know, you can uh look at these kinds of landscapes and find the right proportion between different areas of in your frame and the different layers that the landscape offers you.
SPEAKER_00Let's take just a quick break. We hope very much that you're enjoying today's episode. The very fact that you are listening to this podcast suggests that photography means a lot to you. And if that's the case, you might want to have a look at Frames Quarterly Printed Photography Magazine. We truly believe that excellent photography belongs on paper. Visit readframes.com to find out more about our publication and use the coupon code Podcast to receive a recurring 10% discount on your new Frames magazine subscription. And now back to today's conversation. You do switch to black and white every now and then.
SPEAKER_01Why?
SPEAKER_02Because I think that some photos are better than black and white. I mean, uh, I don't, you know, I in general, I don't think that there is a specific rule for things. In general, you know, okay. I'm kind of uh not ruthless, but ruleless. Um, but um, yeah, I mean, I think that there are some photos that are uh much better in black and white because they deserve to be put more in a sort of no-time, you know, atmosphere, you know, no time zone, you know. Uh color is always uh not in my photos here, not in the photos of this exhibition, but normally color, you know, uh anchors you to uh uh a certain reality, you know, and and and black and white, you know, transports you somewhere else and uh almost in a timeless zone. And and that's what I like a lot about black and white.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Tell me about Picture 8821, because it it seems to me absolutely part of your emotional style, but it is completely unlike a lot of your work in terms of its context.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. No, this is yeah, that's that was in fact taken in in uh Puglia, or as you say in uh in the US, Apulia, which is eventually the the old Latin name for the region. Yeah, and that was taken three years ago. Uh and again, as you see, you know, probably also my inner state was different. Uh so in Puglia, I I have uh besides the fact that it was in uh in a beautiful season, and um so it's it's more, you know, it's brighter, it's uh sunny. And this one I was playing around with uh long exposure, and I uh I took it with an NB filter. It's the only picture where eventually you can clearly see two human beings, uh, two people. Eventually, there is another picture of the dolomites uh where there are some people that are walking on top of a mountain, but they are very, very, very small. I mean, you really have to look very keenly at the shot to spot them. But this one, obviously, they are clearly in the clearly in the frame. And I inserted this photo here because I thought uh I thought it was it was a good composition. I I the umbrella on one end, the two human beings on the other hand, being on the longest poser, they're not perfectly you know relevant.
SPEAKER_01No, we're we're we're okay. I see which picture you're talking about, but I'm actually asking about a different one. Oh, which one? 88 8821.
SPEAKER_028821. Let me go and oh, all right, yeah, yeah. Oh, this yeah. All right. Well, that here you had, yeah, that here you have the influence of Franco Fontana, who was a with a photographer that played, did a lot of landscape photography playing with a very geometrical use of colors in landscapes, uh, defining landscapes with colors and with very straight lines. Eventually, this one doesn't have a proper defined division. Uh, the division, the separation between the darker blue of the sky and the lighter blue of the ocean is given by that uh white strip of light in between the the ocean, the sea and uh and the sky. As a matter of fact, I was kind of hesitant to put this puddle in the in the exhibition because on one end I thought, hmm, I mean, I like it, but this is a very simple shot. I mean, you know, there's nothing really going on in a dramatic way. And and then I and then I resolved myself and I said, no, no, no, no. This deserves to be put in. And to to my very big surprise, eventually it was one of the shots that was liked the most. I mean, lots of people stopped at that shot and really looked into it, you know, they were very much into it. And this is one of the shots that were most liked by by the people that attended the the exhibition.
SPEAKER_01What's uh what's with this phrase under your name where you call it soul photography? Where did that come from?
SPEAKER_02You know me, uh, you have interviewed me, interviewed me uh already a couple of times, and and you know, um, you know that my favorite writer is uh Jean Simon. Uh I have, you know, he's he has been the most prolific writer, you know, that humanity has seen. He has written over 600, 700 uh short uh novels. And he he goes, he he goes really into the psychology of of his characters. Very simply but inequivocably, he tells you how their mind works, how the why they feel something, what takes them to commit crimes or other things, you know, or jealousy stuff, or you know, greed or things like that. And that is a it's a huge work to discover uh what's inside a person's life, uh what the person's feels, that what the person's feel uh feels and and uh and how that person reacts to things, what motivates that person to act or or not act, not not not act uh, you know, on things. And so that's what I like, that's what I would like to discover. And and I do I try to do it with my uh street photography, I like to do with my documentary photography, and nowadays with my landscapes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, I don't know if there's a word for it, um, but there's a way to perceive huge open space. I mean if you're standing on a ridgeline and you're looking down into a valley, um, I mean, you you see the other side, but what you feel in in your knees is the giant open space, you know, in front of you. Right. Um and it's very different than looking up at the sky. I mean, there's there's there's a completely different emotional response to when you're looking at uh a giant, you know, uh you know Valley, basically. Right. That perception of what you know, well, of distance is really for me a lot of what is informing your work. Because I'm even going back, and I was looking for this a minute ago and I couldn't find it. You have a couple uh interiors of cathedrals or churches where you you've really done a master class in light and illuminating the people that are in there. And there's still that same, you know, this might be religious, it might be, you know, whatever, but there's still that perception, that that that feeling of huge cavernous space that is exactly the same vision as you looking from a ridgeline down uh at some trees or looking at an open ocean uh and the horizon in the distance. And I think soul photography um you know is probably the very best way to describe it. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Okay, uh let's go back to the exhibition for a moment. So, okay, you know because this is something that gets all of us. Somebody says, Hey, you want to do an exhibition? You say, Yes, I'd love to. You hang up the phone and you think, oh crap. You know, I now I've got to decide what images, what order, um, how I'm gonna present them. You know, the and you know, you've got to respond or create, you know, the lighting. And it's a beautiful space, by the way. I'm looking at the pictures of the reception. Uh, you know, what what a what a well done job. But tell me how you got from um, yes, let's let's you know put on a party to would you like a glass of wine?
SPEAKER_02Um okay. Uh how did you select?
SPEAKER_01How did you go about curating your own show?
SPEAKER_02Well, it was definitely not easy. You know, you you that that's uh you know that is an interesting question posed by you because you were one of those people. I tricked, I tried to pee the brain out of to select my photos. I had like a selection of almost initially 100 photos to to choose from, and uh and it was very hard. And as a matter of fact, the space that where I had this exhibition was the same same space where I had another exhibition uh two years ago called Invisible. It was the one about the lonely uh you know, focusing on the loneliness of elderly people in uh in an urban context. And the space is really beautiful, is now huge. And because my frame, my frames are like almost a meter by 60, 20 of those frames would actually uh fit really well, you know, with nice being nicely spaced out in that place. So I try my very, very, very best to reach 20 shots and 2020 photos to be uh reframed and put there. And then the more I was looking at this selection, and the more difficult it was becoming because also I wanted to portray, you know, I wanted to have the four different regions. And so I needed to strike a sort of a balance between, you know, the number for each region. Eventually, the Dolomites has uh, you know, more photos than Pugas, let's say. And it was getting very, very, very difficult. And because I'm a person that is not really able to do such a selection and to be very hard on myself, I decided, you know what, screw it. I mean, I will have 20 photos, you know, 22 photos on a big frame, and then I will have another 20, you know, uh printed on a smaller size. So I had like the the the print the printouts were 22, excluding the frame, were were uh 50 by 75 centimeters, and then I had smaller ones, 20 smaller ones uh that were uh 30 by 45. And uh because yeah, at the end of the day, I was not really very much able to be happy with only 20. So I thought, no, this, you know, it's a good stuff that I have. Why shouldn't I show it all, you know, or at least a good a good amount.
SPEAKER_01I I I really admire you for that because there's a number of instances, you know, where where you know you look you up on the web and there's 85 pictures, but it's 85? And then you get into them and you I'm grateful for 85 because if somebody says six pictures, I'm always left with, yeah, you know, God, I wish I would have seen you know another 70.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I mean, uh personally, personally, I mean, as much as you know, quality is important and quantity is not, I mean, is not really you know what you have to go for. But if you have enough quality work that you have done, why not show any? And then, you know, uh, if I go to see an exhibition and there's only like 10, 15, or even, you know, 20 is already a kind of a reasonable number if the quality is high. But, you know, um I as you just said, you know, like, okay, I came, I saw some photos. I, you know, I still would like to see more, you know, and and and I think that a good exhibition should have at least 40 photos.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, depending on the space and stuff. I mean, there are some you know places where you can't get more. Although, I mean, I I I'm still waiting. I've I've heard of these, but I've never seen one. You know, people that are working in Polaroids to walk into an exhibition and see 600 pictures, you know, that are all Polaroids just stuck on the wall somewhere.
SPEAKER_02I I went to see a couple of years ago uh the exhibition uh from Sebastián Salgado, Amazon, Amazonia. Yeah. Okay, the space where it was done, I mean, is was just unbelievable. I mean, it was huge, it was beautiful, the lighting was perfect. And this these photos, they were printed like, I mean, in frame really, really big, all right? And they were like over 120, 130. Now that's where, and and don't get me wrong, I mean, Sebastial Salgado is my idol, you know, is for me. He is the number one photographer everybody should look up to, and you know, and and everybody, you know, we we could all learn a lot from him in terms of what photography is, okay, and what photography should do. But honestly, some of them were a bit repetitive, all right. So maybe when you go and you have like a number that is overwhelming you, you know, then it's counterproductive, you know. Yeah. So that makes sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, again, I said at the beginning, you you've got a little bit of a teacher hiding in your soul there. Um, you you've got two photo tour companies.
SPEAKER_02Well, now it's only one. I'm I'm getting rid of Italy PhotoFun Tours because because it was stupid for me, for me to to have to pay for two different websites and eventually, you know, I'm the same guy. So every everything converges in Rome PhotoFun Tours nowadays. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, well, tell me about the photo tour. And I mean, how do you go about how do you go about teaching photography if somebody shows up in Rome? And let's say they've never been there before.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, you know, I have I have different tours of different duration. And uh the ones in Rome, there are most of them are four hours, or they can be uh seven hours, uh, depending if it's like I have I have one that is basically uh seven hours that is going to Villa Driana in Villa Destre in Tivoli out of Rome, and that obviously like it's a day journey. And then I have a seven hours tour that goes from 4 p.m. to 5 a.m. uh to photograph Rome when there is very few people around, and so and and to really collect a good, very substantial portfolio of photos of uh of Rome, of the main buildings and ruins and you know squares, uh the most iconic places and the non-iconic places. Uh, but most of my tours are four hours, and they can be uh they can be by day, by night, it can be like either the uh architectural stuff and uh you know, again, the iconic places, or it can be street photography. It can be me taking photos of my customers. Uh and I I teach uh as we as we walk. So I teach composition, I teach the use of light, you know, how to play around with light, how to use shadows and you know, dynamic range, uh and all and all that. But most of all, I mean, I don't just teach the technicalities, I also I also try to teach a little bit of the philosophy behind photography. You know, when photography is, I mean, I also have, don't get me wrong, I also have people coming with uh with with mobile phones, and in that case, I focus on composition. But, you know, for me, uh, photography goes end in end with a sort of a mindfulness and to be aware and to really be able to observe what you're photographing in order to understand it, in order to create a dialogue we were talking about. If you think about, we use in in the photography world, we use words that actually have have a meaning, you know, that is that is hidden in the etymology of of these words. So uh when uh we use our lens, we don't really know it, but actually it comes, it's related to objective, you know. Uh and and objective, it means it comes from it comes from a Greek word that is scopos, and and it means purpose, it means target. Um and and and in normal life, we use, you know, we have a telescope, we have a microscope. Well, in medical terms, we have a we can have a colonoscopy colonoscopy, or you know, and that that comes from, I mean, the the the word is copaine, which is again means to understand, is to look in order to understand, in order to investigate, you know, in order to evaluate what we're looking at. So it's not just uh uh a quick look at something, you know, it it it involves it involves a sort of a uh mental activity, proactive, okay, that is aimed to capture that very thing. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm trying to teach. And and uh, you know, and again, uh no, we use the the word diaphragm, right? And as I said before, diaphragm does that part that is dia and it means between, all right? And and fragma is comes from it's like a it's like it's like something that it's in between two things, all right? Like the diaphragm of our in our body, but it's like the diaphragm in our in our lens, right? So that where the the light passes through, and eventually even the chakra is is a sort of a diaphragm, if you like. So, you know, you know, if we know these words, we can even understand better what we are doing, you know, and and and and and what we unconsciously do, but if we know it, then we make you know, then it becomes more uh aware. We become more aware of what we're doing. And I think that is very important. And that's not, I don't mean that you know we have to work like accountants, you know, and like engineered on our shots. No, I'm not saying that, you know, but being aware of what we do is is kind of important. I'm just reading now uh Paul Oster's uh last book, uh 4321, which is actually really beautiful and you know uh very, very interesting. And I noted down uh something that he writes, uh, and I think it's it's very pertinent to to what we we are saying, you know. And and here is I I can I can read from the book. At a certain point, he writes he's talking about uh the relationship between uh two friends, one is called Ferguson and the other one is called Federman, all right? And then he writes, what struck him most about Federman, so what struck Ferguson most, what struck him most about Federman was his great spirit of observation, his extraordinary atonement to the world around him. And when Federman pointed out a cloud, a cloud running in the sky, or a bee settling on the stamen of a flower, or recognized the call of an invisible bird that echoed in the woods, Ferguson felt as if he saw and heard those things for the first time. That he would never have noticed those things if his friend had not pointed them out. Because walking with Fedeman meant, above all, practicing the art of attention. And attention, as Ferguson discovered, was the first step to learning to be alive. And then he goes on and says anger and disappointment could carry you only so far. But without curiosity, you were lost. Now, curiosity, and that's why I always ask so many freaking questions, maybe pissing people out, is because I'm curious, you know, because again, curious comes from Latin, and it means to dedicate your attention to something, you know, it's your solicitude to something, it's desire to know. And curious has also the same etymology of care. You are actually caring about something. So, yeah, I mean I think that photographing is to be in between things, the things that surround you, being interested in them, all right, and trying to establish that dialogue, establish that conversation, asking things, this and and and getting the answers, you know, that you eventually crystallize in in your shot.
SPEAKER_01Okay, Julia, you've got more than one photo tour out there. So tell me about the whole range of the tours that you offer and the ones that you're leading the or hoping to lead in the future.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Uh when I came back from Kenya, that was in 2014, I started thinking about my future uh jobs and whatever I could have I could do. And in 2016, I started working for a company leading photo tours. And then um, you know, I gathered enough experience and you know about this new kind of business. And uh and uh in 2018 I founded Room PhotoFun Tours. Actually, with Room Photo Phone Tours, I started off by giving uh uh photo tours and workshops in Rome. Uh they are like four hours long and they can be either by day or room by night, shooting iconic places in of Rome. And then I also diversified these tours by also giving uh workshops, street photography workshops, or I uh or even uh tailor-made photo tours for people that have specific uh specific specific wishes of how to photograph Rome and so on and so forth. I photograph people uh if they want me to. Um and and then I have even a crazy tour that goes from 10 p.m. to 5 p.m. to photograph Rome without people, without crowds, and not in the heat of the summer, and uh, you know, as you would never see Rome otherwise. Sometimes even Romans don't see Rome that way. Now, from that experience, I then, you know, uh I kind of uh uh create I created other tours around Italy. Those can be Tato made again, uh, three days or one week, and those take place in uh either the full workshop in Rome and uh uh vicinities, uh, or it can be in Tuscany, down in Marema or Baldorcia. They are in Umbria, where I actually live, in Puglia, in southern Italy, and now I have a new one that is in Venice and Slovenia. But the very last born is something that I just launched and actually already got some um uh people that want to do it. Uh this coming August and next August and September and February, and that is a 10-day uh photo safari in Tanzania, namely to go and uh photograph three major parts Tarangire, uh Ngorongoro, which is you know the volcano, the big volcano, uh the crater, uh where there's a huge part, and then the Serengeti. And that's it's aimed mainly to photograph the great migration, which is you know, it's an amazing, amazing spectacle. Yeah. Yeah, the way I run these workshops, the way I run these workshops is basically obviously uh teaching the technicalities of photography. I focus on uh mainly on composition and obviously the use of light, because we all know photography means writing with light, and that obviously means that a good photographer should be somebody that is able to master light. But I think that the composition part is very important. What I always say to my customers is you know, it's like when you write an essay for school or for university. If you write it with the wrong grammar, then it's not going to be effective. But if you write your essay, your you know, your theme in you know, using the right syntax and the right grammar, your what you write is going to be effective. And this is the same thing with the composition in a photograph. But more than that, more than that, I also like to teach the philosophy beyond and behind photography, you know, what it means to stay in a place, what it means to be immersed in a scene, what it means to, you know, take, you know, put your full attention on what you're doing. So it's like a mix, as we said before, it's a mix between, you know, photography, mindfulness, and a different way to look at things. That's what my customers appreciate the most, besides also all the different information I provide, if it's in Rome, about Roman history and so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_01Okay, one last question. Sure. Uh, and this is image 4329.
SPEAKER_02Still in that same town that we've made better, but uh 42 44.
SPEAKER_01So 43, 43, 29. Oh, all right, yeah. Okay, beginning, middle, and end. Tell me about this. Because you know what? This picture snuck up on me. I saw it, I thought that's that's really good. And I was going through the rest of them, and I kept coming back to this one. I kept, you know, for some reason, I this is one, you know, if you were to count repeat visits, this one would be way up on the list for me. All right. Tell me everything from color to the occasion. Yeah. Tell me the story of the one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Uh this is in uh Baldorcia, is in between in Toscany, between Baldorcia and Cretesenese. And this is indeed a very iconic spot. This is, you know, this is a spot that has been photographed again million times. All right. Is there is a circle, actually, there are two circles of cypresses sitting on top of two hills. Okay. Uh, the one that we see is the first one more, you know, on a lower position. Then behind it, if if one walks, there is another one uh, you know, that is now hidden by the by the hill. And uh and it has been photographed, you know, again, so many times in so many different ways. But because it's in Tuscany, it still has it always have that, it always has that kind of idyllic feel, you know, the postcard feel, you know, room. The view under the Tuscany sun, all that kind of things. Other than I mean, I'm nothing against those things, all right? I mean, I mean, they're both two beautiful movies, is a beautiful way to enjoy Tuscany. Tuscany, it is like that. I mean, I do think that Tuscany is by far one of the most beautiful regions in Rome, and that's also because it inside Tuscany. In Tuscany, you know, the beauty of nature marries all the art and history that went through it, you know, for centuries. So the two things they marry, they converge, they they you know, they mix to a point, though, that becomes again a cliche. All right. So I wanted to get a different kind of shot here. I didn't want to have the sky beautiful and and and calming and and you know, reassuring, you know, because again, another thing that I think is that art is should not be something uh, you know, to reassure you. You know, it's something it should be something that actually propels you to some sort of to to kind of unbalances you, all right? Kind of shakes you, and and then you and then you see it, and you know, what you see propels you to ask more, you know, to go to to wish to know more about that thing, or you know, you know, brings your mind somewhere else, you know. So I didn't want to give that kind of feel, I didn't want to give that kind of of uh uh look. So I used uh uh a 14 uh 14 um uh millimeter lens, the 1424 Nikon that I had. Okay, and so I went very wide in order to have that very dramatic sky. And then I worked on on on obviously I worked on the shot um in post-production.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, tell tell me about color and post-production, right? Because it it it's it strikes me as this is this is a created piece of art and you've more than documentary, and it's gorgeous, but it's also unusual. Well, yeah, I mean, again, it's it shouldn't be some.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I I try not to do usual stuff, you know. I try not to to create things that you have seen over and over. I mean, it would make no sense to, you know, uh it would be it would be for me, it would be to feed this monstrous one-thought mainstream aesthetic that now we might be in danger to Safa, you know, the one created by Instagram. You know, if you if I I don't want to talk badly about about my colleagues, but sometimes when you see photos of photo tours, let's say for in the dolomites, all right, uh, you always have the same shots. You know, you always see the the the flower in the in the foreground, and then in the background you have the multitants, and you know, and it's that very shot that is repeated over and over and over, right? So I try not to do that. I try not to do that. And and I do it, and I try not to do it even with my work with in in post-production. I mean, working on the colors and uh uh giving uh giving to my images. You know, an image I think leads three different lights, all right? One is when you take it, one is when it's post-produced, and the third one is one, but it can be it can be uh a million ones, because it's the one that eventually lives again in the eye of the viewer. For me as a photographer, the the first one and the second one, the lights, are the most important ones. So it's what I felt when I took the shot. And what I felt when I took the shot, what I knew that the image could event the potential of the image, how it resonates inside me, and to to propel me to take the shot, because I was again feeling something with what I saw. And in that moment, I put my mood of that moment, and then eventually the shot has a second life when I post-produce it. And at that point, that potential, if I'm good, if I'm good, I will be able to make that potential explode, you know, express itself at its best. All right. And uh and that and that and I'm not saying that there is only one way eventually to post to post-produce the same image. Uh when I have an exhibition, uh, or when I'm building a series, and you know that my work on frames is always you know, having this very long series of photos on the same subject, um is to have a continuity of mood, of of um, you know, uh palette. And uh and so for that series, I want to deliver that kind of thing. I want to deliver that kind of emotions. And and the emotions come out through the palettes I use, through the work that I do in post-production on that photo. But that doesn't mean that the same photo in 10 years' time, where my mood would be different, could be a different work in post-production. I could work on it in a different way in post-production, you see.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but but I believe it was Ansel Adams who wondered how many performances he could get out of a negative. Um, you know, there was the negative, or for us the raw file. Uh, and okay, what do I feel like today? Let me see where we go.
SPEAKER_02Can I can I can I be the one telling you about one more photo?
SPEAKER_01You betcha. Go for it.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so the one it's um the number uh uh G255495. You know, here again, it's about it's about the hidden stuff, all right? I think this is one of my best, best shots ever. But in reality, it actually hides something that is quite quite tragic. You know, this these trees that we see that they are kind of white and gray are actually dying trees because they have been infested by some sort of bacteria or virus, I don't remember, uh, and that is killing because it's it's cutting the length inside the trees. You know, I I think that the photo can can be repeating of very many things. And and even though the shot is beautiful, I think it's beautiful, and I I very rarely brag about my shot, but this one I feel I'm I'm I'm entitled to do it. But it, you know, in reality, it should propel, it should push people to ask why are these trees having this color? And and and and that could could initiate an old conversation that is very, very interesting.
SPEAKER_01Tell me about the stump in the immediate foreground. Did you I mean did you see that when you were taking the picture? Uh let me see. Yeah, the the the cut one.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah, no. Um honestly, no, maybe I didn't I didn't notice it because I was, yeah, maybe I didn't know I I'm honest with you. I didn't notice. I was noticing more the the the leads on the on the grounds that created a beautiful color balance between the the the lower part of the frame and the upper part of the frame. No, the stamp I didn't notice. But I think that I it's good that you that you pointed because it surely adds up something, you know, and it adds up probably what could be the end of these trees, you know, in some in some time, you know.
SPEAKER_01You know, if if we're going to talk about narrative content in an image, I mean the the eye begins with the white uh in the trees, maybe goes up and you know, lingers on the red top left a little bit. But you go down to the center bottom and and here's the cut tree. And so that's the future of what's coming here. Um, I mean that grounds not not the beauty of the picture, but the narrative of the picture in in a really, really deep way. Yeah. Okay. Well, good work, Julio. Take care, man. I I have enjoyed this conversation immensely.
SPEAKER_02Oh, me too. Me too. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to to share my my work and my thoughts about about photography with you and with uh frames friends. It's uh it's an honor, it's a privilege, and I really, really love this group. It's it's a great, great group. And uh Tomas is doing an amazing job.
SPEAKER_00Frames. Because excellent photography belongs on paper. Visit us at www.readframes.com. That's readframes.com.